EK1 on estand...

[harrison987]

I agree.

The biggest problem is I had 5 medals on the estand (all the remaining are 100% legit). I felt that having a link to the listings, as well as a fairly harsh "this is fake" thread with my photos would not exactly help me in any way as far a selling the others. I also had copyright issues (not this site), where photos of mine have been shown publicly (without my permission).

So the decision was 2-fold.

I have listed the 4 remaining medals individually on the estand, and have removed this EK1 from the sales floor.

I will post new photos of the EK1 in this thread later today...but...I would at least like members to tell me "why" it is fake. So far, I have only had people "telling" me it is fake...without educating me any way whatsoever.


Mike

[Dennis J]

Having the pictures removed limits the educational value of the thread. Why not leave them up so someone else doesn't have it happen to them too? Maybe even with the same cross.

Stu

I agree 100%.I reallly don't understand it as this is as you say a way for us to lean from fakes so we can be on the look out for crosses like this fake.......I mean it was ok to have the pics. up when selling as 100% orig vet bring back purchase but as soon as the cross was deamed a complete fake the pics. came down.To be honest I think we all know why the pics. came down.

Dennis J

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[bobcam1]

.....To be honest I think we all know why the pics came down.

Dennis J

Yes, I think we DO.....

[Wik]

IMO, it looks suspiciously like the 'Stuttgart Fake' (note the very wide bead step and Souval-like corners).
I have only seen these fakes in EK2 guise, but I presume EK1 versions exist.

I agree with you Danny, that one is bad. I've seen them as EK1s before.

I think the "what" of the conversation was answered rather quickly to be honest (and if you disagree you can type in Stuttgart Fake in the search function and draw your own conclusions).

Also, they don't really have any dog in the fight. No one here is going to post about an item they think is fake just for entertainment. Everyone here is committed to helping each other out to recognize and show fakes VS. originals. I think you might have taken this a bit too personal.

Danny didn't accuse you of of purposely selling an item you knew to be fake. As a matter of fact I can't ever remember someone posting a thread like this and directly blaming the seller.

Sometimes fakes get into our collections, but the point of this great community is to confirm the accuracy of badges and medals. This is done by the wealth of knowledge based here and on other internet sources like this forum, along with the plethora of books that have been published in the last 10 years or so that have really revolutionized the hobby and made it less of a mine field for new and intermediate collectors.

[harrison987]

Members are drawing wwwwwwwwway to many inaccurate conclusions. So much negativity, people. If you re-read my posts, I tell you "exactly" why the pics came down. A member posted photos that own I copyright on, in another section, without my permission.

I did not like that, so I asked that the pics be deleted.

I ALSO said I would post additional detailed pics later today (did anyone not read my reply ooooooooo about 3 posts up?)...but...I want to know WHY it is fake. Every post here is, "it is bad...it is fake...etc.".

The dealer I bought it from has a link to this thread, and as I am trying to get my money back, it would be pretty stupid of me NOT to show photos of the cross. How else would I get my money back if he cannot SEE the cross he sold me in a thread???

Good greif...

If the point is to educate people, then please do.

[streptile]

Hi Harrison,

Of course we understand your interest in determining why this piece is a fake; anyway, questions such as yours help us all learn.

As with any new fake that is built "from the ground up," so to speak (rather than made with original parts or whatever) everything is wrong with it.

In this case here that means that the frame is wrong, the core is wrong, the pin and hinge and catch are all wrong. So your next question would be, well, what's "wrong" with them?

This is a reasonable question and the only answer is that they do not match originals. There is no original cross that uses this frame, or this core, or pin, etc. Here the frame is a reasonable copy of the Souval type -- so much so that we've seen it on EK2s with an L/58 stamped ring. The pin is sort of a good copy of the "Zimmermann/Godet" pin type, but again we can see some differences. My best guess is that the fakers tried to copy this pin type because it was the easiest to approximate: it's not swollen or tapered or unique in any discernible way -- it's just a straight pin. The core, however, is particularly bad and does not match any original closely.

Even assuming the fakers got the Souval frame and the Zimmermann pin correct (which they did not), taking these elements together would render this cross detectable right away: a Souval frame with a Zimmermann pin? No chance. Add the terrible core, and the thing is easy to spot. (Anyway, this is all academic, as the frame is not a perfect copy of the Souval type -- its shape is wrong, for one thing, and the beading patterns are not correct. And the pin, as mentioned, is not a perfect copy either.)

This type surfaced in large quantities within the past decade and was called the "Stuttgart Fake" by one of our members here because he first saw it at a show in Stuttgart, Germany. It's a mediocre copy; good enough to fool a casual enthusiast or a dealer who can't possible know everything about everything, but not anywhere close to good enough to fool a dedicated EK collector.

If the dealer who sold this cross is reading this, please refund this collector's money. Many of us buy from dealers precisely because we can return items we are not happy with. A 30% markup over collector value is the price we pay for this right.

[harrison987]

bah...

well that sucks...

Now I know the reason why all my collecting was on the technical end...and not clothing and badges...



Mike

[streptile]

Hi Mike,

Yes, it does suck to be taken by a dealer. Now let's see if he can do right by you.

Here are some montages to show the faker's attempts.

First is the fake cross next to the frame it tries to copy, the Souval.

Next is the fake pin next to a Zimmermann pin; you can see how simple the pin is, and why it's ripe for faking.

[Dennis J]

Hi Mike,

Yes, it does suck to be taken by a dealer. Now let's see if he can do right by you.

Here are some montages to show the faker's attempts.

First is the fake cross next to the frame it tries to copy, the Souval.

Next is the fake pin next to a Zimmermann pin; you can see how simple the pin is, and why it's ripe for faking.

Mike, notice how the orig. cross has had the catch and the pin soldered.The fake that you have is not soldered in a way that the badge can be worn for combat or for any long peroid of time.You can see on the fake that it is just enought soldering to put it together.This with what has already been said should help you out.I hope you get a refund.

Enjoy your hobby
Dennis J

[Tony T-S]

Streptile that's a really helpful comparison, many thanks. Fingers crossed for a happy end to this.