Ritterkreuz - unmarked

[Leroy]

Might be now .... where the vice claws were clamped on

I saw that, too, and it made me wince. Looked like the cross was hooked up to a battery cable....

This is the same area (9'o'clock arm) and it looks like just a trick of the photography.

[F. J. Stephens]

Knights Cross Question

The owner of the KC in question has asked me to assist in providing a fresh photo of the item. The image which I am attaching shows the lower (outer) edge of the 9 o'clock arm on the obverse side. The combination of the images is as follows:

A - the edge of the arm raised so the angle of view is slightly from the underside of the medal.

B - the edge of the arm as viewed flat on.

C - the edge of the arm as viewed from the inner of the medal.

Is there any discernible flaw on the beaded of this medal?

F. J. Stephens, on behalf of the owner.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Since the newly provided pictures are smaller than the original ones I cannot make any statement othat than this: it really doesn't matter whether the cross has flawed beading or not - it is a post-war production in any case.

Dietrich

[reichenberg]

This cross is up for sale on a UK dealers website. He is asking £3500 for it as a consignment item.

[F. J. Stephens]

Knights cross

Since the newly provided pictures are smaller than the original ones I cannot make any statement othat than this: it really doesn't matter whether the cross has flawed beading or not - it is a post-war production in any case.

Dietrich

Dear Mr. Maerz,

The medal in question is not mine - I only took the photos and posted them on behalf of a colleague - although I have a passing interest in them, my specialty is bladed weapons.

However, as you have made such a definitive statement, I would like to ask you to clarify what exactly are the "give away" features which determine that this medal is a post-war striking? Just a request for a bit of hard evidence, if it is not too much trouble. Thank you.

Frederick J. Stephens

[Dietrich Maerz]

Here is the text:

"I have just received this excellent condition Knights Cross and Ribbon. It is totally unmarked and been consigned to me from a 90 year old lady who has recently lost her husband. He was serving in Flensburg at the surrender and brought this back along with a few other items on his return home. These unmarked ones are referred to in The Iron Time page 362 and The Iron Cross page 316 . The majority of notable collectors place these to the 39/41 period.
It has excellent burnishing and frosting , is non magnetic and has a wonderful patina. Ribbon is not full length but displays well as you can see."

Oh, the romance! I have no contact to this "majority of notable collectors," but the collectors I know, don't put this non-magnetic, non-silver, unmarked B-Type in the period of 1939 -1941 but rather (well) post 1945. The price is also telling .....

I just hope that any "notable" and "serious" collector will do his home work before spending that kind of money on a post-war fake!

Dietrich

PS: Both Stephen and Williamson are of course right in stating that there are non-magnetic, unmarked genuine crosses! Just not this one!

[Dietrich Maerz]

However, as you have made such a definitive statement, I would like to ask you to clarify what exactly are the "give away" features which determine that this medal is a post-war striking? Just a request for a bit of hard evidence, if it is not too much trouble. Thank you.

Frederick J. Stephens

Sure! No trouble at all!

The frame is a typical S&L B-Type which can be identified by several definitive features, such as the dent row and the 6-9 o'clock flaw. It is well documented here on this forum and also in the (current) literature (which I can only suggest to any dealer!). It would be repetetive to go through this again here. Just do a search under "B-Type."

This type was already sold years and years ago by the then world-famous dealer Niemann as a post-war model with the description that this is from the same maker as the real deal and would be the closest one can get to a genuine Knights Cross w/o paying the full price of such an award. The going rate is about € 600 - € 1000.- as far as I recall.

Dietrich

[reichenberg]

Oh Noes! Who is going to tell the little old lady that her hubbies prized bring back RK is a postwar copy and has never seen Flensburg in it's life?

Incidentally, another UK dealer sold one of these a month or so ago at £1500.

[Lowboy]

I own one ... and I love it.. post war or not.

[90th Light]

Personally, I feel that it is important in the discussion of any S&L "Type B" to point out that the timeline has not yet been established beyond doubt.

Put simply, we do not yet know when the production of "4 800" or "4 935" ended and very high quality non marked Type B's began ???

I suppose what I am saying is, "there are unmarked Type B's then there are unmarked Type B's"

Confused then try reading all the threads on this forum about it and see if the confusion lessens or not

"Leroy" sumed it up in the quote below and I have posted this more than once. Anybody with a high quality "Type B" should take this into account before they sell it esp. if they are going to let it go for between Euro 600 to Euro 1000.

Let me please state once again, I have the up-most respect for Dietrich's book and the research that he continues to carry out into this matter. Until we solve this one however, I feel it is only fair to put forward both sides of the debate,

Chris


"So what do we have? It is a fact that any "B" which has extensive raised beading flaws uses frames made no earlier than 1957, so you can eliminate those from any consideration whatsoever. Similarly, any S&L RK which uses the "C" frame dates from after 1957, so those can be eliminated, too. These two types constitute the vast bulk of all postwar RK's from S&L. All others employ either leftover original wartime parts or (even if you interpret the famous article in REVUE magazine concerning Herr Knoth as meaning that some firms in the Ruhr area actually newly re-commenced die-striking, and not just assembly, in 1953)(which is not how I interpret it) parts created between 1953 and 1956. I will ask, again, that collectors seriously look at the extent of the "market" between 1953 and 1956, and consider the continued availability of original wartime pieces at that time, the cost of the such originals. at that time, and the activities of Souval, rather than S&L or other German companies, in supplying that early limited market. To me, there are truly not many of either wartime "B"s or postwar "pretenders" we have to worry about, and the ones we do are extremely subjective. Like Chris, I have a hard time rejecting the "stories" of Bob Hritz and Andreas Klein, or the reports of "B" types by Bowen in the hands of legitimate RK holders (not yet at the time of Bowen's work old or befuddled) as crosses which they owned during the war. This is truly one (but not the only one) of the "last frontiers" for RK collectors. I also believe (and understand that Dietrich concurs) that we need to examine much more closely the possibilty of "die-sharing" and "parts sharing" by companies which may have produced such awards.[/QUOTE Leroy]"

Where does this current thread leave us in terms of what Leroy wrote above ???

Chris[/QUOTE]