Panzergrenadier DKiS Winner ID

[DonC]

Hello, All -

I am looking at a tunic for a PzGdr Major that has a cloth DKiS sewn on. Does anyone with access to the DKiS lists know if a PzGdr officer was ever awarded the cross in silver, as opposed to gold? Unfortunately the tunic is a privately tailored job with no shoulderboard numerals to help narrow an ID down at all.

Any help appreicated!

Don

[Gordon Williamson]

Hello, All -

I am looking at a tunic for a PzGdr Major that has a cloth DKiS sewn on. Does anyone with access to the DKiS lists know if a PzGdr officer was ever awarded the cross in silver, as opposed to gold? Unfortunately the tunic is a privately tailored job with no shoulderboard numerals to help narrow an ID down at all.

Any help appreicated!

Don

Don,

Only one I can see who fits the bill exactly is Major Artur Stockburger. Divisions Kfz Offizier with 90 Panzergrenadier Div, awarded 31 Jan 1945.

There are other Majors listed who could be possibles - i.e. a Major from 116 Pz Div, but what Regt within the Div ? - possibly PzGren. You'd also have to bear in mind the possibility that the DKiS was awarded as a Hauptmann , then promotion to Major followed. The above is the only obvious contender I could see though.

[Jeremy Chan]

Originally Posted by DonC
Unfortunately the tunic is a privately tailored job with no shoulderboard numerals to help narrow an ID down at all.

Don, whether it was a privately tailored uniform or not, it could probably have the name written on a tag inside the tunic, maybe on the neck label?
And it wouldn't have any regimental numerals on the shoulder straps because the order was given to remove shoulder regimental numbers during the Polish campaign for security reasons. It's unlikely you'd find one wearing them in the mid/latter years.
As for a major of Panzergrenadiers being awarded the German Cross in Silver, I realise that IS rather unusual for a front line soldier. But perhaps he served in the General Staff sometime in his career, or some other administrative branch, before being reassigned (perhaps yet again?).
But I recommend that you research the DKiS and its recipients, and maybe narrow it down to those recipients ranked major and below. If that is hard, well I'd read about the German Cross a while back and IIRC there were less recipients of the DK then there were the RK, and then again, less recipients of the DKiS than there were of the DKiG.
And just to muddle everything, that major could've been awarded the DKiS when he was still a lieutenant (both 1st and 2nd) or a captain. We don't know yet!
Cheers,
Jeremy

[DonC]

Gordon and Jeremy -

Thanks to you both for your replies - it helped a great deal!

Don

[DaveJ]

I would like to see a photo of the cross when or if you are able,

Dave

[DonC]

Hi All -

Here are a few scans. I am more concerned about the tunic than the DKiS - I realize that one can be sewn on fairly easily. I am trying to get more detailed scans from the seller.

Don

[DonC]

The DkiS:

[Airborne Nut]

Forgive my lack of knowledge, and this is purely a self interrest question. If one were awarded the DKIS would not the corresponding IAB be bronze?

Again not realted to this thread, just a question.

-Shane

[fknorr]

Maybe I am wrong too but I do not think the DGiS has anything to do w/the IAB being Silver or Bronze, the DGiS being awarded for more of a leadership role (as opposed to bravery), correct?

Although, doesn't being a Pz Gren by default mean he should have the Bronze IAB (motorized) as opposed to Silver IAB (foot)?

It could be entirely for display I know...

[DonC]

Hi Shane -

I would imagine an IAB awarded to a DKiS winner could be of either variety in and of itself, but since this gent is a PzGdr, the IAB should be in bronze. I am assuming the seller has just "badged up" the tunic for the pics, and used whatever was handy - in this case, the "wrong color" IAB. Had this man transferred into PzGdr from, say, infantry, he conceivably could have won the silver IAB in that branch and continued to wear it. Then we're REALLY getting into conjecture, of course...



Don

[Jeremy Chan]

Shane and fknorr, let me step in. (fknorr, you're a member of the Axis History Forum, aren't you? I remember you posted in the HWC section at first.) I hope this does't make the topic deviate completely from the original subject, but Shane, the grade of Infantry Assault Badge had anything to do with the grade of DK awarded. Fknorr, let me explain. The Infanterie Sturmabzeichen was awarded in silver for conventional infantry, and it was awarded in bronze for motorised infantry, which was of the same branch as standard infantry.
However, Panzergrenadiers (armoured infantry) were a totally different arm-of-service, and thus their battle badge was the Armour Assault Badge in Bronze.

Now Don -- and this could aid in your research! -- the fact that the Infantry Assault Badge in silver in pinned on your tunic (I'm assuming it was there when you purchased it?) indicates that its owner was either originally from an infantry unit but transferred to the Panzergrenadiers, or his unit was originally an infantry unit whichupgraded to panzergrenadier status. These could be two options as to the history of its original wearer.
The fact that the tunic has six front buttons indicates that this would be a mid/later war blouse, as prior to 1942, those uniforms with six front buttons were those of general officers or GFMs. Even with the high quality, yes, of course Herr Major could've taken is monthly pay to have a splendid tunic made up from his favourite tailor.
Hope I helped, Don.
Cheers,
Jeremy

[Ian Jewison]

One criteria for the award of the DKiS is that he should already have the KVK second and first class!!!!
The dealer could have badge it up but the guy could also have earned the IAB in an infantry unit then transferred to a PZ.Gren. unit......
Also his DKiS could have been awarded as a Leutnant so we should be looking for a Major and any rank under that!
Last point....who is to say he won the award as Pz.Grenadier?

/Ian

[DonC]

Good points, all - Jeremy, thanks for the clarification. I wanted to point out that this is a tunic I am considering buying, not one in my collection. I am not completely sold on it, mainly because of the DKiS (too good to be true syndrome). Also, it looks like it may have the "false" French cuffs as opposed to the "real" type (ie, cuffs sewn all the way around instead of "open". I agree with Ian that the DKiS could have been awarded at a lower grade, but my main concern is the authenticity of the tunic itself. I assume that there were not a large number of DKiS's awarded to a combat branch such as PzGdr... I had though that the DK's could be awarded regardless of the award of the EK or KVK - I may be wrong on that! Also, I am confident the badges have simply been "hung" on the tunic for display, so I would not attach any importance to the ones on the tunic aside from the DKiS, of course.



Don

[Jeremy Chan]

Don, I think I now know which one it is -- you're planning to buy from N & T Militaria, I've seen the tunic there. As the wearer was a panzergrenadier but there is an Infantry Assault Badge instead of the Panzer sturmabzeichen in bornze, as I stated, his original unit must've been an infantry outfit. As for the IAB being added postwar, I don't think it could've been tampered with over the years. However, many online dealers badge up a tunic with decorations other than the original to make it look more appealing. And as it has the DKiS, then he would've been in some noncombat branch before, probably a General Staff Officer.
To answer your observation that the tunic has false cuffs, I think that was in the description. It looks like it. Remember, it's a privately tailored piece, and many officers would've indulged in non-regulation alterations. This one is no exception and being an officer, he would've made some adjustments here and there as he saw fit.
Cheers,
Jeremy

[DonC]

Thanks, Jeremy. I am failrly sure all the badges have been simply plopped on for display - if you notice, the ribbon bar is for a police/party type, not a front-line fighter. Thanks agai to all for your input!

Don