German cross opinions

[actionoke]

Is this STEINHAUER & LUCK type 4 Rivet German Cross original or post war?It came with a original death card for Leutnant F Promberger Panzer Gren Regt .It has un- usual markings on the back .Could these be unit formation markings for the unit?I cant see any manufacturing numbers on the pin.Thanks your opinion would be appreciated good or bad.

[actionoke]

3 pic

[actionoke]

4

[HenrikKH]

S&L

A good one, who knows for sure?

Regards Henrik

[Dietrich Maerz]

Franz Promberger was awarded with the German Cross in Gold on 11. May 1944. Considering a certain lead time he would have gotten a cross which was at least made sometimes in autumn of 1943, if not earlier.

As we all know, at that point in time the Präsidialkanzlei-numbers were already in use since about end of 1942/beginnin of 1943. So the cross should be marked - it isn't.

Futhermore, there existst a letter from Mr. Preiss, who was in charge of Steinhauer & Lück during the war, dated 1977 (Orden & Militaria Journal No. 26, Sept. 1977) in which he states that he was in Berlin in a meeting with Dr. Doehle on 20. Juli 1944 and received an order for German Crosses in Gold. Whether they delivered the medals in time before the war ended or the PKZ was evacuated, he did not write. Clear is however, that this confirms that F. Promberger was for sure not the awardee of this cross in question.

I also think, that IF (and it is a BIG if) S&L ever delivered the ordered crosses, they would have been marked with "4".

Dietrich

PS: Mr. Preiss also states in this letter that the PKZ numbers were introduced in 1943, not mid-1944. Something that still seems to be in the minds of very few. One only needs to study the East medal to see that that mid-1944 date is completely wrong.

[actionoke]

So is this a copy then?

[Dietrich Maerz]

I think it is post-war, yes.

[Thomas Durante]

Great information Dietrich, as always.

Notice the tool mark on the pin near the hinge, this is the type of tool mark found on 1957 badges in my opinion, so I am also of the opinion that this is a postwar cross.

Tom

[Leroy]

Futhermore, there existst a letter from Mr. Preiss, who was in charge of Steinhauer & Lück during the war, dated 1977 (Orden & Militaria Journal No. 26, Sept. 1977) in which he states that he was in Berlin in a meeting with Dr. Doehle on 20. Juli 1944 and received an order for German Crosses in Gold. Whether they delivered the medals in time before the war ended or the PKZ was evacuated, he did not write.

Well, at least this should confirm (for the chronically suspicious) that S&L did not just go out and create new complex dies just for the fun of having something new to barter to occupation soldiers.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Yes, that is true. Unless (and that is true also) that Mr. Preiss was not quite telling the whole truth. There are some statements from him in Nimmergut's opus magnum which are for sure not 100% correct.

But it is quite conceivable that S&L got the order and that S&L made some crosses. The question is: did they reach the PKZ and did they reach any awardees? I think that answer is "No!"

It could also be that they had the crosses ready to ship (marked "4") and never did or could. So they sold them after the war. When that stock was gone, they started producing those w/o the "4". Mr. Schiffer had them in his catalogs.

For me at least one thing is clear: the unmarked ones cannot be pre-May 1945. Not after what Hr. Preiss reported in 1977. They had to be marked! Same applies to the B-Types w/o a "4"!

[Leroy]

As usual, I agree in part and disagree in part.

That they made some crosses is, I believe, beyond dispute, based on the "barter boards" of finished and unfinished stock obtained shortly after the end of the war, and photographs taken in that same period. Although there is a lot of "noise" surrounding a very few pieces on these boards, there has never been any proof whatsoever of newly commenced actual die-striking by S&L until years after the war.

That the ones which are wartime should be marked "4" is something I agree with completely. The DK's on the "boards" were so marked.

To the question "Did any make it to the PKZ for award?", I think the only fair answer should be "We don't know!" (not "No!).

As to the question regarding the necessity of all "B" crosses being marked "4", that is something I simply reject, as do many others.