Walter & Henlein EKs?

[streptile]

Hi Dale,

Here is a 109 W&H (thanks Oliver):

[Stepdale]

Well, at least we have established that the EK1s with the bubble are war-time produced, which is better than some of the reviews they received on GCA. I have to say, most of the doubters could not back their belief with any evidence, but I suspect most of their doubt was simply because many of these are from the Czech Republic, which raises a red flag in many collectors' eyes. But I lived several years in the CR and continue to work with friends there, so I know that many original things are to be found there.

I guess, however, that we still haven't established W&H as the maker of these EK1s, nor who the maker actually is. As for the EK2, I know it doesn't match what seems to have become accepted as the W&H EK2, but quite a few different EK2s have been found with W&H EK2s, so who knows 100% what is the true one. I believe the one you show is accepted, but I have an EK2 in a W&H envelope that came from the veteran's family. The core appears to match the one you posted, but the frame appears to my old eyes to have sharp interior corners as opposed to the rounded ones on the one you posted. I'll try to scan or photograph it later and post when I can. The fact that different EK2s are found in the W&H envelopes could mean numerous thins I suppose - they are put together post war, they were mixed up at the award ceremony, or W&H changed its frame and/or core over time, though I'm not sure why the firm would do that (but I guess some other firms did as well, so who knows). That the screwback EK1 and EK2 came from the W&H factory doesn't necessarily mean W&H produced them is possible, I suppose, but leads to further specualtion on why.

As a final note to add more to the mystery of Gablonz, I see in many past threads that quite often W&L EKs with the ring marked 100 have been found in W&H packets. As shown in a previous thread, http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=329321, Pavel found W&L SWBs and Schwerin u-boot clasps near the Adolph Scholze factory in Gablonz along with documents showing that Scholze had done work for both firms. Though it's pure speculation, I suppose it could be possible that W&H produced EK2s for W&L, though why they put them in their own envelopes is anyone's guess. As with most Gablonz badges and medals, it's difficult to find hard facts.

Appreciate all of the input so far. Would like to see if anyone could pin down more potential makers of the EKs that started this thread.
Dale

[streptile]

Well, at least we have established that the EK1s with the bubble are war-time produced...

Hi Dale,

I am not personally convinced these were made during the war, although I admit it is a good possibility. I will say that the pinback looks like a wartime-made cross to me, for whatever that is worth (not much). But it would make me feel better if there were any other period EKs known with this frame, and if the quality was better (the frame is extremely flawed and the core strike very weak on the SB and EK2). Also, the continued production of EKs as souvenirs in postwar Austria makes me a little apprehensive when I look at anything found "down there," even buried deep in the ground. If something was buried during construction for a block of Stalinist apartment complexes in the 1950s, we would not necessarily know that they were not wartime crosses when we dug them up 65 years later.

I think the most interesting and exciting thing would be if we could get a close, good shot of the "109" EK2 I posted above, and compare the frame to the ones you have posted. If these two match, then we're really, seriously in business. I am working on a good scan or photo of the W&H EK2.

As for the EK2 I posted as a W&H: a friend of mine bought a stock of brand new, mint condition items from the son of a former owner of a medals and orders shop near Munich. Among that stock were some 50 sets of "61" packeted "61" KVKs, some cased and marked SWBs, some other small awards, and something like 50 of these exact same EK2s, in tissue and W&H Packets. So you can see that my belief in the "W&H type" rests on a similarly debatable story to yours. I guess, at this point, it's a matter of some faith when it comes to what the exact "109" type is.

[Stepdale]

Trevor,
I understand that ground dug is always proof, but having seen Pavel's finds in person as well as those of numerous other diggers in CR, I am convinced these are wartime. There have been too many found in locations where troops dumped items before surrendering, where temporary POW camps were, and where Wehrmacht facilities were located for me to think they could all be postwar. I understand the paranoia of folks when it comes to Eastern Europe, but having found very nice original items from there for over 20 years now, I know that many good things were there (unfortunately not as much now as right after the Wall came down) and continue to come out.

Appreciate your hard work on this. I'll try to get my EK2 posted soon.
Dale

[Stepdale]

Here are scans of the EK2 I bought from a picker in Germany who said he got it from the veteran's family. It came in a W&H envelope, along with some extra ribbons and a couple of ribbon bars. My scanning skills are only slightly better than my photography skills, so I hope this will be clear enough to distinguish the details needed. To my untrained eye, it appears the core is the same as the EK2 posted above, but I'm not sure the frame is exactly the same.
Dale

[Thomas Durante]

Nice research guys!! I am not a cross guy per say, but I love following these type of threads and I think all this is very positive to say that these type of crosses are indeed wartime......and made by W&H IMO.

I notice that both the EK1 and EK2 share the same feature, where the "3" sits higher that the numbers on either side. The fact that these EK2 have been found consistently in W&H packets is a very good indication of the maker. One or 2 packets not, but several from different sources is good evidence IMO.

Good job guys, I look forward to seeing more discussion on this.

Tom

[pavels_2005]

Hi Dale,

thanks for posting the details. I gathered some more details that could help to solve this mystery. Few years ago I was able to dug on the place where the unfinished products from Walter und Henlein company were dumped. Part of the finding were also few pieces of EK2 production. See the pictures below. Now we can compare the rims if they match with the posted EK1 and EK2. Please see also the interesting "small crosses" which are the midle pieces cut out from the rims during the production.

I think that Walter und Henlein produced many EKs during the war and it is very possible the used many stamping tools for the production - so the design of the rims could vary in different period.

In one article in period newspaper I found that the day production of EKs in Gablonz was 1000 pcs and 30 000 pcs of Mother crosses per Week - which is huge quantity.

In Gablonz was also common that smaller companies or home workers supplied different stampings parts to bigger companies so also Wuh could possibly source some parts from different people.

I can confirm that the by Dale posted screwback EK1 and EK2 were given me by an old man many yers ago and come from the stock of former WuH company from Gablonz where this man worked after the war. The crosses came with other WuH items ( mother crosses, political pins etc - marked by WuH codes - unfortunately I was not able to get the other items at that time....

Looking forward to see more comments to Dales thread - it seems that not many collectors are ready to express theit thoughts to this EKs......

Best Regards

Pavel (Gablonz)

[ben bijker]

I was a bit sceptical about these crosses, because of the small hole, but today I got this SB
Nice condition, assembly was done pretty well to.

The date is very crisp and sharp, so the other SB in this thread may have a core from a worn down die...

On this cross the anti-rotation pin sits on the 6 'o clock arm as well.

[ben bijker]

.

[Stepdale]

Ben,
Appreciate you posting the SB you found, it looks nice. I am convinced these are original, and based on a PM from another EK specialist like yourself, I'm reasonably convinced they are from Walter and Henlein.
Dale

[davidmark]

Final photos.

This day i look this arts and im happy because is learned. how to decent ................




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[ben bijker]

Ben,
Appreciate you posting the SB you found, it looks nice. I am convinced these are original, and based on a PM from another EK specialist like yourself, I'm reasonably convinced they are from Walter and Henlein.
Dale

You're welcome, Dale.
And yes, I think these are authentic as well, and (based on the pics posted) most likely made by W & H.

best regards,
ben

[5tefan]

Every time, when I see a EK1 with a hole on a back plate it remind me to this variant. But at least I would say it is a postwar production, because there are no official known awarded EK1! Sorry for the bad quality of the pictures, it was the beginning of taking fotos of EK1.

[ben bijker]

@5tefan:
that cross is from the same maker.

I do believe they are authentic.

How can you know or tell these were never awarded?

Best regards,
Ben

[5tefan]

Hi Ben,

because I'm looking forward that someone convince me that this EK1 were official awarded. At this moment nobody does, so I'm sceptic like most of the EK collectors and rate this EK1 as postwar production to be on the safe side.

So far I didn't see a assured EK1 convolute with this EK1 type! So it is imo not official awarded!

At least it will be a question of belief! And I don't belief that this type is a war time build EK1.

@5tefan:
that cross is from the same maker.

I do believe they are authentic.

How can you know or tell these were never awarded?

Best regards,
Ben