Repaired DKiG ???

[Matthieu]

Thanks for looking .... hope to get a bit more input on this piece .

Grtz
Mathijs

[Matthieu]

Bumping this thread .....

I was lead to believe this particular DK was postwar made, hence I sold it to a known and well respected collector as such.

And now it suddenly appears on e-stand as original for 1800 Euro ...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=594691

Seems I was swindled good .... seems buyer knew very well what he was buying ..... .

Extract from his e-mail

QUOTE
Thanks a lot for your message! As i said i really like your cross very much. In fact it doesnt have any signs of a pre '45 cross and you won't find anybody who pays you much more for it than you paid yourself. Even anybody gives any comment to that cross, although there are for sure the most experts in the forum you can find on that field. But of course you should not have any loss for it. I can give you 390€, you can keep the case as you planned initially. How does that sound? If you want, can also make talk about a trade, but i dont have anything '57 for you . But if you are looking for EKs 1939, i can for sure help you!
UNQUOTE

I assumed this guy was an honest collector .

Grtz
Mathijs

[streptile]

Once I bought an EK1 1914 as a copy on the forum. I paid the price of a copy and kept it in my collection as a postwar copy.

Later, after George and Dietrich's EK1 book was published, I did some research on the piece and discovered that it was in fact a known and uncommon wartime variation from maker Alois Rettnemaier. But when I bought the piece I had no idea. When I sold the piece, I sold it as an original, for that is what it was.

Research, and also opinions, are always evolving in this hobby. The "dotted date" DKiG was sold between collectors for years as a copy -- or at best as a questionable piece. Now, if someone who bought one back then wants to sell it, he can legitimately claim it to be almost certainly a wartime piece.

I was lead to believe this particular DK was postwar made, hence I sold it to a known and well respected collector as such.
And now it suddenly appears on e-stand as original for 1800 Euro ...
I assumed this guy was an honest collector

I will reply on the subject of the persons involved rather than the piece, since I "know" both buyer and seller as forum-friends and like both men very much, but I am no DKiG expert.

I know the buyer of this cross as an honest collector -- in fact, very honest! Just recently he has done something totally unnecessary and extremely honorable for me, as a friend and fellow collector who I have never met in person.

I think that perhaps we should wait and hear both sides of the story before condemning the buyer (and now seller) of this piece. I have not spoken to him about this subject at all, but it's possible there is an honest explanation for this situation.

[Dietrich Maerz]

It is true that this cross type - at least the obverse, meaning the wreath and star burst - is the same as the one I show in my book and which I personally think, based on the source and make, to be pre 1945.

It is also true that the reverse of this cross has different rivets and different hardware. Nobody can say when this was done.

In 2011 when the cross was bought my book was already out since more than three years. I do not know when the seller discovered the cross in my book. Whether this cross is worth euro 380 or euro 1800 is between the seller and buyer.

Dietrich

[Matthieu]

I think that perhaps we should wait and hear both sides of the story before condemning the buyer (and now seller) of this piece. I have not spoken to him about this subject at all, but it's possible there is an honest explanation for this situation.

I follow this guys threads on EK's closely and you all seem to speak so highly of him.
HE contacted ME and said it was a postwar production, together with comments gathered on the forum stating the same.
I had bought it as postwar piece ( as was the etui which I kept ), and he bought it from me as postwar piece.
And suddenly ... couple of months later .... it hits e-stand as original for 1400 Euro above of what he paid for it ???
I am not expert on wartime DK's, do not have any books on the subjects and trusted a well respected member.

I have contacted him to give his side of the story, but what is there left to say on the matter .... .

Grtz
Mathijs

[StefanK.]

Dear Mathijs!


You can believe me that it was clearly not my intention to rip you off or betray you in any way! I really love to investigate new things and keep myself updated in the hobby. Doing research is important for me, maybe more than collecting.
Our hobby is developing constantly. What is considered as a fake can be accepted as an original after some months and vice versa. That happend to the "rounder RK", the "3/4 RK", the "dotted DKiG" the "B S&L" and many many variations more. People sell and buy on the basis of the market value and popularity and rare things are sold much cheaper and common things are sold for a lot of money. Sometimes we buy fakes as originals, sometimes considered fakes and unknown variations that turn out as good after some time.
Beside others, german crosses are my main interest and i keep on investigating constantly. If i see something uncommon I try to get it to find out more about it. Some things turn out to be fakes after, others to be originals.
Your cross impressed me because it was odd, something uncommon and unknown. I found it worth being investigated which i did for the last months by looking at it carefully, spending hours for searching the net and reading and comparing it with examples published in books.
I bought the cross from you on the basis of my knowledge back then, on the opinion of others and the fact that it was offered as a reproduction from the dealer.
From todays view, i am of the opinion that this cross is an original. The way it is made, the material, the paint and many other facts speak quite a cleaar language. But to get that insight, i needed hours in holding the cross in my hands, comparing it to known originals and studiying books on the topic.
Well, i think that wont diminish your anger so what can we do now? Do you want the cross back? Or do you expect from me the sell it for the same price i bought from you?

Stefan

[Dietrich Maerz]

You should have bought my book in 2009 (or the German version in 2010) - would have saved you a lot of study.

Did you ever find out why the reverse is so different? I don't think that it is the original set-up.

At any rate, everybody can offer a cross at any price. The question is, for how much it will sell. Fact is this: at the time of the selling for € 380.- here at WAF my book about the German Cross was already on the market and one could have seen it. I did not and that is most likely because the reverse of this example looks not like "pre-1945".

Dietrich

[Matthieu]

I must thank Stefan for posting his side of the story here.

Although I feel a bit robbed, there is not much we can do about it.
He bought it from me as postwar piece and 3 months later it pops up again as original, 4x of what I sold it for.

So be it ... perhaps I should have done my homework or perhaps I do not need to trust any WAF member as from now.
He is the well respected member and I'm just the idiot who sold it to him too cheap, guess it boils down to that.

I've ventilated my anger and given my point of view and will leave it at that ... case closed.

Grtz
Mathijs

[Mike Yokum]

most likely because the reverse of this example looks not like "pre-1945".

Dietrich

Dietrich,

What exactly is your position on the cross? Pre '45 front and post '45 repairs to the reverse?

[Dietrich Maerz]

In my book I show an example which I think was made before May 1945. Because of the source and because the make, obverse and reverse, looked good to me. I want to remark that I do not own that cross and I have no financial interest in it and can't prove whether it s pre May 1945 or not.

This example here has a reverse which I would not put into pre May 1945. So at best it is a modified original piece IMHO. Something for a collector who has everything else.

Dietrich

[liquide]

also for me clearly postwar made badge - here in Germany some collectors would say copy...

but i agree with Dietrich "At any rate, everybody can offer a cross at any price. The question is, for how much it will sell "



best regards,
Martin

[StefanK.]

I agree that this cross might be controversial but it is for sure not "clearly" postwar. Clearly postwar is something like the floch-EK-fake which can be found on the market in huge masses and which can be identified in the way it was manufactured that it certainly was not made before 1945.

This cross is of a very high quality, crisp striking and the whole way it was assembled is done as carefully as one would expect it on undoubtedly originals. Moreover it does not show any traces to be modified etc.

As written before, the obverse matches 100% with the cross shown in Dietrichs book which is described as an unknown variant. That variant is also part of a grouping to a soldier named Bruno Jucknies, whose cross was presented on this forum some time back. Consequently the obverse does have a good chance to be original, but what about the reverse? obviously it does look diferent than the Jucknies cross and the cross published in Dietrichs book. But does that fact make the cross a fake?
I studied Iron Crosses and German Crosses for years. Speaking for the Iron Cross one can find many pieces with odd and uncommom hinge/pin setups, variant discs and odd markings. So why not also the German Cross? Looking at the piece in question i feel quite comfortable to believ that it is original. The rivets are similar to those found on early Deschler crosses and the hinge is exactly the same as it was used on dozens of EK manufacturers, so is the hook. Also the shape of the needle shows clear similarities to wartime awards.
So all in all the cross definately is not clearly a fake but at worst a controversial piece.

[Dennis J]

I must thank Stefan for posting his side of the story here.

Although I feel a bit robbed, there is not much we can do about it.
He bought it from me as postwar piece and 3 months later it pops up again as original, 4x of what I sold it for.

So be it ... perhaps I should have done my homework or perhaps I do not need to trust any WAF member as from now.
He is the well respected member and I'm just the idiot who sold it to him too cheap, guess it boils down to that.

I've ventilated my anger and given my point of view and will leave it at that ... case closed.

Grtz
Mathijs

I hope you learned your lesson.The buyer knew what you had and bought it at a steal and is now trying to sell this so called 100% orig. cross for a lot more than he paid for it.He is a good honest forum member.You never trust a person I don't care who they are you buy the item.You say you did not know the cross and I am sure you asked other people and they said the same thing that it was a put together piece with post war parts or that it was a fake.The buyer all ready said he knows these crosses and has stuyded these crosses for years so he knew and he got you .Now he wants to sell the FAKE cross for 1800 e that is no longer a FAKE but a RARE varient............................nice guy.

Dennis J

[Sly]

What an interesting back and forth. It seems to me that profit is fine when unknown and there are multiple separations between manufacturer and consumer, buyer and seller. The minute it becomes transparent then there's a problem. I did not wake up this morning fuming at Kellogs when I realized my rice crispies are delivered to my table at 1000% profit, or at the second-hand car dealer who purchased my car for $1000 and sold it for $5000.

[Dennis J]

What an interesting back and forth. It seems to me that profit is fine when unknown and there are multiple separations between manufacturer and consumer, buyer and seller. The minute it becomes transparent then there's a problem. I did not wake up this morning fuming at Kellogs when I realized my rice crispies are delivered to my table at 1000% profit, or at the second-hand car dealer who purchased my car for $1000 and sold it for $5000.

That's not what I am saying you can charge what you want for your items.It just reminds we of when I started out years ago and had a hat that I was told was post war(I did not know hats)so I asked a friend about the hat and he told me a parts hat or a complete fake.He asked me to sell it to him so he could have it as a filler.So I sold it to him(trusting him as a friend )for what I paid for it $25 and 2 months later he says it was an orig. and he sold it for $300.The bottom line he knew it was real I did not but he was a friend so I trusted him.I never did that again.I just don't think the buyer was up front with the cross and knew exatly what it was and his fellow forum member did not jmo.

Dennis J