I recently purchased the DKIG that has been floating around the collector world for awhile that is known as a "dotted" Zimmerman. I would like some feedback to see if the debate has changed on this. As a collector I would only want a piece that is 100% correct with no issues and from reading past threads and other forums I am starting to have my doubts about these. 2 questions another forum member had asked is why don't we see any German vets with these? Are there any out there? 2nd: The core evidence (seems) for pre 45 is the Klessheim cross. Why were there not more of these in the "hoard"? If Zimm made a die change wouldn't we see more of these crosses. If they are real, they would be exceptionally rare as a "type" piece. I have looked through dozens of sites and see not one "dotted" Zimm. The SEM test showed a diffrence in the "dotted" compared to known originals (if I understand the data correctly). So, I am wanting to get some opinions as to wether I keep it or ask the seller to accept a return. The pictures are copied from sellers site and another forum member as I don't have the cross yet. Thanks guys!!
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Here are the photos from sellers site. -
You know my opinion but for the sake of fairness I say it here again in public:
IMHO this is a 100% genuine pre May 1945 made example! Why?
- it has all the characteristics of a genuine Zimmermann but the wreath
- it has the 11 o'clock flaw (how would a faker know that or get the parts????)
- it has the correct marking (How would a faker get that right?)
One dotted so far has been found as part of a genuine and untouched Klessheim group, in cellophane. How did the possible faker come up with the (extremely are) cellophane bag?
I was skeptical as most of the readers here know. But what would this hobby be if we stick with the old rumors and stay behind insisting on the old knowledge - ignoring all the new findings which are made due to effort of a lot and due to the internet?
We would be all fools if we stick to old rumors and assumptions in the face of indisputable findings.
This particular dotted is very rare because it is not just a dotted (which are rare), but this one has the 11 o'clock flaw and the "full" 20.
I say "keep it" because you have a very rare one.
DietrichComment
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Thanks for your help with this Dietrich, it is most appreciated. I never paid attention that the whole wreath is a difrent style altogether. Do you have any idea when this cross may have been produced? I know that during wartime stocks can run out and maybe they had to rely on something they normally didn't use. Have any "dotted" appeared on cloth DK's? I am really trying to learn about these as I know they would be quite rare if they are pre 45.Comment
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Not that I'm a big fan of "attributed groups" of unnamed medals of any kind without definite "proof" but interesting Bcarver brought this thread up. Take a look at a recent grouping at e-medals.
http://www.emedals.ca/catalog.asp?item=GRA3974#bigPicComment
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That's interesting, I was just reading about Marzluf. That auction shows a minty (but old) dotted Zimm.Comment
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yep. That's why I linked it. Now the date of award is pretty early. These crosses have been speculated as being late war. But who knows. There are some with the flaw and some without. That's why I always take full "attributed" groups with a grain of salt.Comment
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From talking to some of you I am starting to have a small change of opinion. One person told me if these were post 45 there would be more of them. There are only a small handful out there it seems, not something that would make you money back in the day.Comment
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I think we always have to differentiate between two things in a group:
1. Is the item genuine?
2. Does the item fit the group?
Number 2 is where Niemann did so much damage to the K&Q Knights Cross, attaching many (not just one or two which could easily have been as a replacement) to extremely early groups.
This IMHO is very likely the case here, too - meaning that this piece is a replacement. And that would make sense. Here is why:
- a DK awarded in 1942 will never be that close to mint, nor will it be a light model
- the PKZ was introduced after the award date, no award pieces with "20" in 1942
- the dotted version is late, very late most likely
- the dotted version was at Klessheim, coming from the PKZ
- the PKZ was the only source for DKs
But to be fair, there is the possibility that the cross was added to the group at one time or the other. I would think that a dealer would not necessarily add a mint dotted, knowing all the controversy surrounding it. IMHO this is a genuine pre-May 1945 cross which belongs to the group. However, it is clearly a replacement, respect. additional acquired piece.
An extremely nice group with an extremely nice K&Q!
DietrichComment
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There is a very rare "1957"-version of the Zimmermann-GCiG out there; it has the identical date-flaw + "11 o´clock"-flaw (sometimes on different position like "1", "5" or "7 o´clock").
Even the maker mark "20" is the same as on wartime-made Zimmermann´s...
Interesting to see: the golden wreath has more in common with the pre-1945 Zimmermann as the "dotted"-piece...
Greetings,
berghof73Comment
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