EK1 spange

[Ron C.]

Well the chance came a lot quicker than I thought. I looked in the last place I remembered them......and they were amazingly still there; however, it didn't help much. I tried both photo and scan, but the numbers on the cases didn't show up in the shots. I found all 3 cases and the 2 spanges the vet had......don't know what happened to the third one, he couldn't find it. The one on the left, which was IDed previously as a Junker (if I remember correctly) goes with the case in which it resides. The other two cases both appear to me to be L/5?.....sometimes it looks like an 8 to me and sometimes like a 3. Anyway, here is what I got.

Ron

[tinmantis]

Hi
great pics
yes, it does seem to look like a 3 or 8, rather than a 4
the mystery continues! I love it

also, could we see the juncker spange again please?
regards
jon

[Ron C.]

Hi
great pics
yes, it does seem to look like a 3 or 8, rather than a 4
the mystery continues! I love it

also, could we see the juncker spange again please?
regards
jon

Jon,

As requested, here is the one which was IDed as a Juncker.

Ron

[tinmantis]

wow, that's a juncker alright!
what was the story with the vet? where did he find them?
regards
jon

[Flemming]

I know I am a "bit" paranoid, when it comes to spange, but doesn't that "Juncker" seem a bit rough in the overall finish?

I'll try to find another picture to compare with.

/Flemming

[Flemming]

I will upload 4 pictures now.

The first picture is a side by side comparison and the 2nd will be the head and chest.

/Flemming

[Flemming]

The last two pictures.
Again, the first picture shows the two Swaz and the 2nd will show the date bars.

I can't see a match between these two.

/Flemming

PS The "dark" one, is what I would expect a Juncker to look like.

[Flemming]

I also made pictures of the wings...here they are:

/Flemming

[tinmantis]

I put it down to 'shine' and photography
but
seeing it with your great comparisons, it's different. Just look at the right toe, or the hook of the 9...

Although I still can't see this as a repro... different die?
I think this may have been toughed on before, but I'm racking my brains. I havn't got the time to look through my files at the moment, but I will get back to this later
regards
jon

[Flemming]

I would say repro, as I think it tries to hard to be a Juncker, which I do not think it is.
And I think the details are to poor, to be "another die cut".

Jus my thoughts.

/Flemming

[Ron C.]

wow, that's a juncker alright!
what was the story with the vet? where did he find them?
regards
jon

Jon,

Unfortunately, I can't tell you even the vet's name anymore.......I guess the stroke took that away too.......or exactly what all I got that day. I was on one of my "pick an area trips" to see what I could find "knocking on doors" so to speak. I know I was in Rutland, Ohio, and I had asked at a local beer joint that was there then if anyone knew any WW2 vets who might have brought anything back that they might part with in some manner.

I was directed to the vet, whose house was just up the road on the right hand side one street over on the left. I knocked on his door, told him who had directed me to him, and what I was looking for. He invited me in, and we talked a while about his war experiences...but I don't remember the outfit he was in and etc.. I didn't write it down, and I didn't record him on tape (the vast majority of us didn't do that back in the mid-60's.

He went back in the other part of his house, and I heard him going through some things and then he asked his wife where those things were that he brought back. He came on with either a bag or box of things. In it were the 3 cases, the 2 spanges, an empty Memel medal box, about 3 or 4 miniature Mother's medals with the little LDO boxes (maybe there was an extra box...I don't remember for sure), a couple of EK2s, a cased EK1, a cased WW1 EK1, I think one full size cased Mother's medal with the neck ribbon, 1 dress bayonet, 1 mint looking fighting knife, a Russian front medal, an IAB (or maybe 2), a few misc. tinnies, and some cloth (but I don't remember what)........oh there were also a couple other medals but again I don't remember what.......I was focused on the spanges (I didn't have one at that time). I didn't even make him an offer........just asked him "if you were going to part with these in some way......what would be the way?". He looked at them and me and said "I wouldn't take less that $12 for all of it."..........I thought for about 30 seconds just for effect, and handed him the money........that was dirt cheap even then! He gave me a beer to celebrate the deal, and said "wait a minute, there is something else"...........he came back with a helmet and a Eickhorn officer's dagger with hanger and knot, and sold them to me for another $12.....his price.

Before I left, he directed me to a couple of other vets in the area, and I picked up 2 Japanese swords for $10 each (wraps were a bit missed up), a civil war sabre for $6, a rough SS dagger for $6, and a Land Customs dagger with the hanger and knot (don't remember how much that was but I think $20).

I know stories don't mean much, but you asked.......and that is all I remember, except I had fun that day. It may have been one of the better days I had just "knocking on doors".

Now......for the other concerns. From my days in criminal law, both as a prosecutor and defense counsel, I know for instance in tire print identification it used to take 15 points of similarity to make a positive ID of a tire with the paster cast of the tire print found at a crime scene........even though tires come from the same mould, no two tires are ever identical. Each time to mould made a tire it was slightly different from any other made in the same mould. As more and more tires were made the differences could be even greater with the ones made before with the same mould. Are dies any different? I doubt it, because after a die is used many times it must eventually be replaced. I have no idea when the spanges were made, how many dies they had, or how many were made with the die which made this spange.........I doubt anyone knows that with any spange they may have. Also, was there a difference in the materials used, or the mix formula of the material, from say 1939 to say 1944........I don't know, because I am not an expert and don't want to become one.

I do know that, when something is photographed against a black velvet background with a bounce flash, it makes it stand out more and makes it look brighter........and when it is photographed against a white background it looks a bit darker.













And when it is photographed against a red foam type background even the background takes on a sort of pinkish cast.



The darker spange shown in the comparison photos looks to me to be brass colored with no silver colored finish, but I would guess it probably does have finish on it and maybe it is just the lighting; however, I have no idea when it was made, what die made it, or what the materials mix was.

The one I have......repro? Going back to the criminal law example, I have not even the slightest doubt that it is absolutely not a repro.......let alone a reasonable doubt........and, of course, it is not for sale. That is one of the major reasons I quit actively collecting in the late 1970's, so many people were practicing "larceny" that people wouldn't believe that anything was real. I even used to say that people wouldn't pay 50 cents for a dollar, and to prove it.........I used to put a dollar bill in my case with a 50 cents price tag on it. They would ask to see it and look it all over, but I never had anyone buy it.......I did win a lot of money off of the people set up next to me though, betting that people wouldn't pay 50 cents for a dollar bill!

By the way, all the shots are the same spange.....just different backgrounds and with Photoshop adjustments trying to make the white background white.......white often looks gray in the shots.

Thanks Jon,
Ron

[Ron C.]

I just remembered something else. It was so dirty when I got it in around 1965, give or take, I put it in some warm water with some dishwasher soap in it, let it soak for a while, scrubbed it lightly with a extra soft bristled toothbrush, and dried it by rubbing it with a soft cotton t-shirt.

Ron

[Bob Hritz]

Ron,

I would be tickled pink to own this nice cased 1st pattern spange. Nothing wrong and a wonderful, original example.

If it becomes annoying to you, I would buy it in a minute.

Bob Hritz

[tinmantis]

Ron, I really appreciate hearing the story, and the time you took to explain it all
I was right back there with you! (well, I wish I was!)
I still havn't had time to check my files (I have about 20 or so of these early Junckers on file) They made quite a few, and I don't doubt a second die
I too, would very easily lift that piece from you!
regards
jon

[Ron C.]

Bob and Jon,

Thanks.....but I have had it now around 46 years, and I really want to keep it for now.

Ron