knights cross with oakleaves from General Hoernlein !

[frankandfrank]

In German auctionshouse there is for sale:

knights cross with oakleaves from General Hoernlein

knights cross is: 800 - 2
oakleaves is 21

Hoernlein got the knights cross on: 15.March 1943 !!

Is this correct to get a 21 oakleaves on this date???

I think on this date was only L/50 pieces ?

What is correct !

[Bob Hritz]

Knight's Cross 30 July 1941

Oak Leaves 15 March 1943

Unless the Knight's corss can be documented as a replacement (by period photos), I would think that 1941 is far too early for a 800 2 marked Knight's Cross.

The Oak Leaves are a bit more tricky as I believe that the PK numbering system was in effect by 1943, but have no iron clad proof.

Of course, upon promotion to General, he could have had as many sets as he wanted.

Bob Hritz

[frankandfrank]

The knights cross with oakleaves looks in this auctionons house as new!


http://www.andreas-thies.de/onTEAM/v...huetzt/0478_45

[mdj]

perhaps the US dealer who delivered it to Thies, can shed some light on it....

I was told that the first KC is still in hands of the previous owner together with visor, coat, photo albums etc.

martin

[Flemming]

The Oak Leaves are a bit more tricky as I believe that the PK numbering system was in effect by 1943, but have no iron clad proof.

Bob Hritz

I have a DKiG with the MM 1 on it. If the name on the back is correct, it was awarded in November 1942.
Erich Wiese was awarded this DKiG on the 10th of November 1942.

Link to a thread showing the DkiG is here:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=184183

Best regards
Flemming

[Bob Hritz]

Hello Flemming,

I could never reconsile the German Crosses with the dating of the PK numbers. I have heavy 1, 20, and 21 marked German Crosses which I would think are earlier. The very few L/52 marked German Crosses are rare and should be more prevelant if the LDO numbering system was used until 1943. Perhaps, the PK numbers can into use in 1942. It will take more research to determine that positively.

Bob Hritz

[frankandfrank]

perhaps the US dealer who delivered it to Thies, can shed some light on it....

I was told that the first KC is still in hands of the previous owner together with visor, coat, photo albums etc.

martin

You think that the selling kc with oakleaves on the auction is only a normal one, but not the one from General Hoernlein ?

[Dietrich Maerz]

There is no way that a "2" marked Knights Cross was awarded on July 30, 1941. This was just four month after the introduction of the LDO-numbers and even before the prohibition of the private sales. He either got a 800 S&L or a 800 Juncker. It is most likely a privatly purchased replacement piece.

The 21 marked oakleaves are possible. On cannot deduct from the dates of (solid) award dates of the Knights Cross the introduction of the PKZ numbers since there were so many L/12 on stock due to the October 1941 recall to the PKZ. I have several in my database with mid 1943.

Based on the German Cross the PKZ numbers showed up late 1942/early 1943. The 21 shows up earlier on the oakleaves since the PKZ did not have that many L/50 from the recall.

[mdj]

You think that the selling kc with oakleaves on the auction is only a normal one, but not the one from General Hoernlein ?

If this first one is still in collectors hands, then this one would be extra purchased by Hoernlein.

martin

[T.Pasqueralle]

Hoernlein

Hello Gents,

In regards to the KC he had a total of three as expalined by the family. He had the first which was award, first cross is still in the hands of the family, the cross he wears in the photo was the second one he bought when he was award the oaks. Then at somepoint the second cross was damaged and a third cross was bought that is the one in the grouping currently.

Best,
Tom

[T.Pasqueralle]

hoernlein

mdj- Is correct in regards to other personal items all are still in the hands of the family

* I miss read your post thought you said in the hands of family I know a group of Hoernlein items did also just come to the market which were bought by a german dealer the other KC could be in collector hands right now along with visor and overcoat but that hasn't been confirmed to me