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**Richard** · 05-16-2002, 09:11 PM

To the seller's credit, he's not shy at providing some real clear close ups. I think he truly believes it to be a genuine piece or he would have provided the standard issue fuzzy image.
Richard V

**oak-leaf** · 05-16-2002, 09:47 PM

knights cross

Gentlemen: I see you have some interesting comments concerning my offering on ebay. I am well aware of the discussion involved with the particular knights cross. I also have studied many original source materials and and have lived in Germany for over 12 years and met and spoken with many RK recipients as well as many advanced German collectors and I truly believe the item to be correct. A case in point. The 3/4 ring knights cross was considered reproduction for many years until believeable proof arose. I do not believe anyone does not believe this is original although Harold Geisler had one for many years before anyone believe him. I am open to sound, logical reasons why this piece is not original. However I am only interested in evidence that can be supported. Theory, guess and other specualtive data is not acceptable. I know where this item was acquired and I know that does not carry much weight but neither does the theories I have heard before. Please provide solid, proveable evidence why this item is not original and I will be happy to withdraw the item. However, I will only do so when one can clearly tell me where and when the item was made and by whom, assuming it is a reproduction that data should be available. Thus far I have only heard speculation based on belief and theory. Such comments as no original documents as to who made the medal and when issued. I can tell you from solid fact our own government has no idea how many medals of honor have been made and by whom they were made. In fact there are over 2000 model 1904 medal of honors unaccounted for. Since our country was not bombed back into the stone age why do we think the Germans would have such a record system. Again, I welcome solid period evidence why this item is not original. All facts are gladly welcome as I always enjoy and want to learn new proveable facts. Collecting should be based on proveable date not gut feelings or falty logic. While in college working on a masters degree, my professors would not accept any data that could not be proven. Please provide proof.

**Gene** · 05-16-2002, 10:33 PM

Please provide proof

Or, don't bid on it

**Doug See** · 05-17-2002, 10:56 AM

This is coming from too close to Cedar Hill TX for comfort. Just my opinion.

**W. C. Stump** · 05-17-2002, 11:18 AM

WHO IS OAK-LEAF?

Would it be possible if you would identify yourself with a real name? 44 year colectors are of my time and I knew a collector in Texas who sold me some 50 mm Knights Cross ribbon a year or so ago. Would you be the same gentleman?

**Frank Heukemes** · 05-17-2002, 11:21 AM

Dear Bill,

Yes, definitely of your time and caliber, even the language is similar. Look at his last sentence!

Cheers, Frank H.

**oak-leaf** · 05-17-2002, 01:11 PM

ID

Gentlemen: My name is William Eicher and I am a second generation retired Army officer. Unfortunately, I do not even know where Cedar Hill, Texas is. I started collecting when I was a child and 99% of my collection came from friends of my father, as he servered in the European theater of operation in WW II. Additionally, my father was the head of the Military Police in Heidelberg Germany in 1952-1955. Needless to say, he was able to acquire whatever he wanted. As far as I can recall, I have never sold any 50mm ribbon to anyone in my life as original 50mm ribbon is almost impossible to find. I appreciate everyone's interest in this item and I am always happy to learn new things. One never knows it all. As for the item for sale, I know exactly where it came from and would be happy to release that information on a private basis. In fact, I have already done so on one occasion. As stated earlier, if it is proven this item is not pre-1945 or, for that fact, pre-1941; I will gladly remove the item from the auction as I have no desire to cheat anyone. Money is not of interest to me, only customer satisfaction.

**Sebastian Bianchi** · 05-17-2002, 01:25 PM

Mr Eicher I applaud your efforts in coming here to discuss your cross. As you know there is a bit of controversy surrounding the piece you have for sale so perhaps providing a bit of background might help us all learn something.

I hope you understand our members’ initial skepticism; e-bay is a Petri dish for fakes.

Seba

**oak-leaf** · 05-17-2002, 01:42 PM

knights cross

Gentlemen: I would do the best I can. As a young man in 1966, my father, a full colonel, was assigned to Fort Sam Houston, Texas. While living on Post, we lived next door to a Congressional Medal of Honor recipient on one side and a Merrill's Maurader on the other side. Both of our neighbors were Colonels also. The Medal of Honor recipient served in the European theater where he earned his medal. The MOH recipient had numerous German WW II items, none of which meant anything to him. Over the course of time I expressed an interest in his war souveniers and he just gave them to me. Of note was another knights cross with oakleaves and swords and a knights cross with oakleaves. Both the oakleaves and oakleaves and swords are marked 900 21 and both knights crosses are 800 L/12 and they do have the proper "cross hatching in the center" as proper L/12 Knights cross are supposed to have. This item was also in the pile. There were many other items but these were the major items. Since he got them for free and I got them for free, I have little doubt as to the originality. Just as an aside, the Merrill's Maurader was a Colonel by the name of Logan Weston, whom you may have seen on the History channel when Merrill's Mauraders were discussed. I have posted additional information on ebay advising bidders that there are numerous discussions concerning this medal and not to bid if not completely happy.

**Greg S** · 05-17-2002, 07:38 PM

I for one have very limited knowledge of the Knights Cross and would like to know why this cross is said to be fake or real for that matter. Despite what Doug See would like to project not everything from Texas is fake, nor is everyone from Texas Mr. Charbador, Heim or whoever he claims to have uncovered. Texas is a big state and San Antonio is a big city with I am sure allot of collectors as well as its fare share of fakers.

I do understand the skepticism and I am skeptical myself. I would like to learn from this thread.

**Bill W.** · 05-17-2002, 09:00 PM

Ranger, go on back in to Ebay and look at both crosses! One was sold about 3/4 weeks ago by the very up-right guy identified (and part of this forum) as eindeker. They are the same and in my opinion...we better watch out for the FLOOD of this type after Mr. Williamson's book shows up. Eindecker's RK sold as a repo for $305.00. Call me closed minded but, I'll take Juncker, S&L, K&Q and the super rare L/52 all day long....NOT the 'I need to explain' things like these (Deumer) or pre-LDO things.
IMHO

Bill

**Greg S** · 05-17-2002, 09:15 PM

Thanks Bill, I myself would like a Juncker. Mr Williamson had said if manufactured by Juncker then it was pre-1945 because the dies were destroyed. There are allot of good S&L, and K&Q but I am very gun shy because I lack the knowledge to tell the difference above the basic problems with fakes.

**Doug See** · 05-17-2002, 09:37 PM

My apologies to Mr. Eicher for associating him with a certain low-life from the south-side of Dallas. I can see by your eBay feedback , Bill, that you deal extensively in US medals and certificates and have an excellent feedback rating. I am not qualified to comment on your RK, but am just a bit suspicious of some eBayers from the Lone Star State. I should not have painted with so broad a brush.

Greg, you are right; Texas is a big state. True, not everything from Texas is fake. But because it's so big, it's big enough to hide a lot of very unscrupulous Nazi collectors and dealers with more money than principles. It's too bad these individuals can create a reputation like that, but somehow, they seem to thrive there. Maybe the saying "Don't Mess With Texas" should be applied to those creeps, instead of just to litterbugs.

**mott5ranch** · 05-17-2002, 10:37 PM

Hello William Eicher

Welcome to the forum. I'd like to slow things down if I may and let's let everyone take a deep breath. I am sorry you were attacked by the banjo boys who have nothing better to do than scan eBay and epier day and night. They also have an agenda against the Lone Star State because of one jerk. I hope you and he are not one in the same. I think not because I look at things in a positive way whenever I can. Many of us here, me especially, had our first contact by fire just like you. I like you was assulted until they got to know me better. I hung in there and it wasn't fun in the begining. I too, had a questionable Knight's Cross. I believed it to be a true example, like you. As far as yours in concerned, I don't know enough about them to say for sure anymore. I avoid the Knight's Crosses totally.

Anyway, please don't let this, your first contact, with the forum sour you. We are collectors of all kinds of military history. This can be a rewarding, entertaining, and frustrating experience. Hopefully you will have already experienced the latter. Three of us will be in San Antonio within the month. I would like to invite you to join us for a drink and share our hobby. One bad thread at the forum is no big deal, we are all here to share and learn and discuss history with no political agenda. We need the Texas chapter to grow and prosper (what a pun). I hope you take me up on my invitation. You can send me a Private Message by clicking on PM at the bottom of this post. Again welcome!

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