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    #16
    Wolfgang - Here's the "blown-up" version of this cross, where you can see remnants of the "dent row" from the old "B" frame, thus establishing the S&L connection.

    The "dipping ring", as correctly noted, is built into the die. The portion of the ring which intrudes into the frame was removed by hand-finishing.

    P.S. Almost invariably, the "C" frames have the "dipping ring" left unfinished. I have seen a couple which were finished in an effort to make them look more like wartime versions, but this was done with the intention to deceive, IMO.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Leroy; 01-13-2011, 10:14 PM. Reason: Add P.S.

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      #17
      Thanks for the info Leroy and Alikn I realy apriciate it this was the info I was looking for. Very intresting info about Gordon Williams there

      Nice to get info and not just "crap"

      Here I have blownup the dented row sections.



      /B
      Attached Files

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        #18
        Thank you Leroy. Though I have carefully followed the A&B frame discussions, I remember very little about the C frames. I went back and re-read some of the old posts, including Dietrichs article, and the S&L section in his book. Since a great deal of discussion has taken place on the subject, it will take me some time to re-read all the old posts.
        Given the presence of the very weak dent row, would that be an indication that the "C" frames were produced with a re-worked "B" frame die?

        I am somewhat suprised how much of the lower portion of the ring was removed during hand finishing. To me it would have made sence to incorporate this into the die. However a careful look at the area shows the hand finishind. For my own satisfaction I did a comparison shot to one of my micro 800.
        Thank you for helping to clear up the very confusing issues surrounding these crosses inmy mind.
        Attached Files

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          #19
          Originally posted by wolfeknives View Post
          ...
          Given the presence of the very weak dent row, would that be an indication that the "C" frames were produced with a re-worked "B" frame die?...
          If there are no knee flaws difference between B frames and what we call C, most likely it's a later production from the same die only with unfinished ring and it got the C name because visually it looks different from the actual B frames, rings of which were finished by S&L.

          Is there knee flaws differnce between B and C?

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            #20
            [QUOTE=Alikn;4429040]If there are no knee flaws difference between B frames and what we call C, most likely it's a later production from the same die only with unfinished ring and it got the C name because visually it looks different from the actual B frames, rings of which were finished by S&L.

            However the above cross does not show the extensive bead flaws which would have developed by this time. Would that not indicate that the B die would have been reworked?

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              #21
              If it is a revorked-repaired die, the knee flaws should be identical,
              but if it's a whole new die, ...why the dent row from a damaged mother hob transfered so weak?

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                #22
                Double post

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                  #23
                  The "C" frame has always been a bit of a mystery to me. I have seen some where the knee flaw appears to have been hand-filed away and some where there is absolutely no sign of the flaw ever having been there. The "dent row" can be fairly well-defined, or it can be virtually invisible. It has been said that the "B" die with advanced raised beading flaws was actually sold to a London dealer in the 80's and used thereafter to make copies. (The supposed "Deschler" RK shown in a popular book, marked "1", and residing in an English collection, used a "B" frame with these advanced flaws.) I don't know how you can sell a damaged die and then see another frame (the "C") supposedly produced from the repaired same die.

                  I would like to think that there was only 1 die, ever, for S&L RK's, just repaired over and over again, but I'm afraid I lean more towards the idea that there was more than one working die, and that the key to wartime manufacture will almost always be found in quality of construction and type of finish.

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                    #24
                    THis turned out to be a great thread with alot of info.

                    Anyone know what one would get for a cross like mine?

                    Is both core and frame of S & L manufacture ? Or atlease made with a S & L die?

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