KVK Knight Cross in Gold. Need help.

[Arsen]

Hello friends!
What do you think about this kross. Is there any chanse of originality?

Thanks!
Sergey

[AndyC]

Thats a rare bird if its original and i am not the man to tell you that

On this link you could see a KVK with sword in gold

http://www.ritterkreuz.us/kvk-in-gold-with-swords/


Andy

[bytown]

I'm not the guy either to tell you for sure if it is real or not.

My feeling is that it is a copy comparing it to the one in the tread.

Hopefully someone will come along who knows for sure.

Wayne

[Wim Vangossum]

Looks not too promising to me. I assume this one has no silvermark.

Regards, Wim

[Guripa250]

RKKVK Gold and Siver with sword

Hi, this is my examples:

[Ron Weinand]

Gold?

This is not the usual gold finish you see on this medal. Unless the photo is not color correct, it is not right. I know Jason Burmeister found an original in the box from the Klessheim lot and it was different from this one.

[byterock]

Never seen one up close but have seen a number of silver and as the gold are just a silver one with a gold wash I would says No!

If only because the Jump and suspension ring are wrong.

Must say it is well made though perhaps a post war Sulval piece???

[Mike Coleman]

Actually I think the jump and suspension ring are correct for the award without swords. I agree that the pieces I have seen have a deeper gold and, if untouched, do seem to have a patina starting, possibly from the underlying silver. This is often seen on silver gilt items over time whether medals or jewelry. IIRC there was one with swords offered on the estand some years ago at an excellent price that had some of that showing. I would want to see markings. I would also take care because there are places in India where you can still get things fire gilded using the old mercury process and some have done this with actual period silver pieces. I know of two in collections that were made this way as a cheaper and visually exact alternative to the expensive war time piece.
Mike

[Arsen]

Maker mark

[Ludwig]

Not a chance!

[hoggtannlars]

I do not know much about the Zimmermann RKKVK's, but I do not like this one.
The gilding is one thing and it got some flaws that I do not like. The suspension ring is not quit as I like it.

[Wim Vangossum]

They knew at least a bit of the manufacturers: both Zimmermann and Deschler supposed to have made them in Gold. Even the Zimmermann's in silver are considered to be very rare.

Also not how the first "9" and the "3" touch each other. On the few close-up pictures I have, you always see a heavy and special patina.

Regards, Wim

[jagdpanther]

Sorry...not a Zimmermann-cross!

/peter

[Craig Gottlieb]

This cross was originally veteran obtained by me from the LIVING veteran, who was a member of the 693rd Field Artillery Battalion and who entered Austria just before the war ended. He obtained this cased cross, along with a Knight's Cross, a German Cross in Gold, a Grand Cross Eagle Order set, and other medals, from Schloss Klessheim. He is still living, of very sound mind, and I have his original photos that he sent me, plus an audio interview that I conducted with the veteran.

This set has been seen by Wolfe and Hardin, by Jason Burmeister, and by other advanced collectors in person, who are familiar with this "hoard" that was discovered by me about 1 month ago.

This is a rare case where the chain of custody is unbroken, since May 4 or 5, 1945. While I am not an expert in the KVK, the provenance of this cross is indisputable, so any variation of this cross, from other examples, indicates that we may have a new legitimate variation on our hands. While the family wishes to remain anonymous, I would be glad to submit my materials for review by any moderator (in fact, one WAF moderator is on his way over to my office right now, on other matters). I would also be happy to submit the piece, along with ALL the provenance (emails, photos, audio recording of the veteran telling his story), to the author of the KVK book, for full review.

[John R.]

Gold RK KVK

I wish to to state for the record that I am the moderator about whom Craig spoke. I had come to his office to buy some Kriegsmarine cap tallies. During the visit, Craig showed me this thread, and asked me to objectively evaluate the materials that he had in his office pertaining to this cross.

I carefully listened to the recording of the unedited telephone interview that he conducted with the veteran (and the veteran’s daughter). In the interview, this specific cross was described by the veteran and his daughter, as were each of the medals, and the exact circumstances relating to how he obtained the material. The veteran clarified that he was in Salzburg at the end of the war. It should also be mentioned that I overheard another WAF moderator, Erich Benndorff, who was present during the interview, request some clarification comments on the recording about Schloss Klessheim from the veteran. The veteran then responded to all questions.

Craig also showed me the original certificates from the family that bear the photographs of each medal he purchased from the veteran (including the one he just posted), and each bears the veteran’s signature. In addition, he showed me the daughter’s original emails to him, when he was contacted to buy these medals.

Craig took thorough steps to document this Schoss Klessheim group. He explained to me that he wanted to document each and every piece carefully in order to preserve the provenance and eliminate any question as to their authenticity that may come up. He told me that is why he asked Mr. Benndorff be present for the interview.

My impression of the veteran, based upon his demeanor and his ability to quickly recollect events in 1945, and the tone of his voice, led me to conclude that what the veteran said was true. Nothing in the recording would suggest otherwise. Furthermore, while I am not an expert in the Gold RK KVK, I have been around this hobby a very long time. This provenance appears to be solid, and about all you could hope for. Based upon the close up photos, the emails from the veteran, and the certificates he sent Craig, the cross you see on this thread appears to be the cross that the veteran brought back from the War, and is the one that was mailed to Craig.

If this cross is different than other examples, perhaps we should consider it to be a new variation.

I hope this contributes to the discussion of this award.

John