1957 Oakleaves And Oakleaves With Swords - Opinions Please

[hagwalther]

Gentlemen,

Below are a couple of photos of which I believe to be 1957 variations of a set of Oakleaves and a set of Oakleaves with Swords.

I have owned these items for a number of years.

The Oakleaves appear to be of different manufacture as differences are noted in the right hand leaf vein position and general outline shape of the Oakleaves themselves.

Note also that the swords on the Oakleaves and Swords item are detailed on the obverse and the reverse.

Both Oakleaves are stamped '800' on the right of the reverse.

I am of the opinion that the swords themselves are fake and that they were added to their Oakleaves at a later date to deceive a prospective purchaser.

However, are the Oakleaves themselves authentic 1957 items?

Items were purchased from different sources at different times.

Opinions gratefully received and once again thanking in advance.

Regards ...

[hagwalther]

Any thoughts out there?

Must be some one on the forum experienced in the 1957 Oakleaves ...

[Andy Mac]

The only "57" Oaks & Swords that I've seen, have had the one sided swords, I've not seen double sided like this. Thats not to say that they are not original "57",s I've only seen a few sets that are plated, as yours seem to be.
you may be right about the swords being added, again doesn't mean they are not original, as wartime swords were added to oakleaves.
There are few different types of 57 issue, some well made some quite nasty looking. I suspect as the with the 57 RK's the quality tailed off as later restrikes were made.
And now as we all know, the repro's are confusing the issue even more.
Can you post close up's of the swords mount to the oaks?

Regards
Andy

[Andy Mac]

I have found on page 477 of Gordon's book "The Iron Cross of 1939" a pic of Oak's and Swords (no reverse pic) Gordon says that these are 57 issue Oak's but that the double sided swords have been added later, and are replica swords.

So maybe your suspicions are correct.

Regards
Andy

[hagwalther]

Rear Of The 1957 Oaks And Swords

Hi Andy,

Thanks for your input. Most appreciated.

I have included a close up of the Oaks and Swords mount. They look like a one piece part to me but I'm no expert in this sort of thing.

I also checked out Gordon Williamsons entry on page 477 and the Oaks are very different in relation to shape an position of the vein in the left hand leaf so I do not believe that mine came from the US manufacturer as described in his book.

What do you think Andy?

I suppose we come down to

1) Pure fake as the swords are double sided AND the item is one piece
2) Swords added later to decieve
3) Authentic variation of the 1957 item

Regards ...

[Andy Mac]

If these were one piece and complete fake, I think they would be more common. Even if made recently or some time ago, I can't imagine someone going through that amount of trouble to make one piece oaks and swords (with double sided swords to boot) and then only making a few sets, (by that I mean maybe 50 to 100 sets) the greed of the fakers by nature would make more. Perhaps there are more and just have'nt circulated yet. There are some late copies with double sided swords but are different to yours, and are marked "800" "L/12" and though quite well made are obvious repros(and sold as so!)

Maybe the oaks are OK and as you say the swords attached later (a good job whoever did it) for whatever reason replacement, museum, or to decieve.
As for original 57s I just don't Know, certainly look the part, not to perfect a little aged, but I don't ever remember seeing double sided swords on the 57 issue before.

Regards
Andy

[hagwalther]

Today I took the Oakleaves and Swords to a jeweller (a craftsman not a retailer) and he is adamant that they are a one-piece item. He stated that he would remove the swords but would be reluctant in doing so as he would be removing originality and not restoring it.

I have also posted below extra photographs of the 'full package' consisting of the Oakleaves and Swords, ribbon and case.

None of the items nor their components glow under 'black light'.

I am leaning to the opinion that these Oakleaves and Swords were made as original 1957 items for a limited production run complete with a 1957 Knights Cross replacement ribbon and case.

As you say Andy, if these were created as fakes then there would be quite a few about and I am sure alarm bells would be ringing on the forum.

They have though, double sided swords which goes against current acceptance so a certain amount of doubt must continue to remain unless an original set of 1957 Oakleaves and Swords with double sided swords is released from an impeccable source.

The single Oakleaves as shown in the first photograph of this thread also has a case and replacement 1957 Knights Cross ribbon.

Andy, thanks for all your help in this matter. It is most appreciated.

Other comments will of course be gratefully received.

[Gordon Williamson]

Haven't been able to chip in for the last week or two as my ISP was down and I've been waiting for my local telephone exchange to go live with Broadband. Just got connected at last this evening.

The Oakleaves as definite Steinhauer & Lück 1957 type. The Oaks with Swords however alook pretty much like these postwar copies. A number of German dealers are offering these and you can probably find some now on German E-Bay.
Note the shape of the leaf, the central rib of the right hand leaf and the fairly crude detail on the Sword hilts.

[Gordon Williamson]

They are sold with various markings including L/12, 21 and SiLBER L/50.

[hagwalther]

Thanks Gordon for helping me out here. Excellent news re: the Oakleaves and I am delighted that they are Steinhauer & Luck, 1957 type.

Shame about the Oakleaves and Swords though and I will keep looking to complete a collection of 1957 Cross items currently standing at two magnetic EKII's (one by Deumenr - see previous threads), a cased magnetic EK1, a cased magnetic Knights Cross and now a cased set of S+L Oakleaves.

Gordon, thanks again and all the best with the Broadband.

Regards ...