RK Ritterkreuz S&L Steinhauer & Lück

[Bucky]

Hello.


I got this Knight's Cross today.

1. How could I understand this kind of Knight's Cross produced before May 1945, especially after May 1945??

The RK is not marked and not magnetic.

2. What is the market value of this cross?


Thank you for help.

Regards

Bucky

[Franco]

Hi,
This is a post war B type.The lowest price Ive seen for one of these ( with its loop ) is around 700 euros.The highest and currently for sale is 4750 euros.
Any help?

[Dietrich Maerz]

This is IMHO a clear-cut post war production. However, there are dealers and experts (Geissler) who are convinced that this is a very early model. Some will say that it is not known when it was made.

You can buy such a post war B-Type at a German dealer site for over € 4000.- - he might buy it from you for € 100.- ....

[Leroy]

I hope you will at least agree, Dietrich, that based on the lack of extensive raised beading flaws, this cross probably pre-dates 1957?

[streptile]

Is this cross made out of (800) silver? Or neusilber? Curious.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Gentry,

I agree but for me that is not important. I am only interested in pre or post May 1945. The concept of an early fake and a late fake is not something I buy into (and I am not saying you are!). I was completely shocked when the first post war offerings of a S&L were announced as an "early post war production from the same company that made the war time crosses."
The creativity of the new P.T. Barnums is astonishing!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Is this cross made out of (800) silver? Or neusilber? Curious.

Neusilber

[streptile]

Neusilber

Thanks, Dietrich. You can tell by looking at the frame.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Sometimes yes. In this case it is so because it is unmarked. Even the fakes were not so blunt to mark Neusilber with "800" or so. Because that would be against the law ....

[Leroy]

... The concept of an early fake and a late fake is not something I buy into (and I am not saying you are!). I was completely shocked when the first post war offerings of a S&L were announced as an "early post war production from the same company that made the war time crosses." ...

My only interest in postwar productions is to try to determine, insofar as humanly possible, the exact sequence in which these appeared. Some postwar pieces most assuredly used leftover original wartime parts; others (the great bulk, in fact) used newly created parts. Although there is a clear, and worthwhile, distinction, between wartime assembled and postwar assembled pieces, for those who cannot afford a wartime assembled cross (now going in the 10K range), and there are very many such collectors, I can see the very valid wish to at least come as close as they can to an original wartime piece.

Even on those few "B" pieces (other than the 935-4 and 800-4) which I personally feel have a chance of being legitimate wartime assemblies, I would never pay the prices I see being asked on European websites. If I am correct about such pieces (and I know you disagree), they are still pieces not intended for award use.

P.S. I think it is sometimes difficult to tell what is neusilber and what is unmarked silver, or even silverplate. The highly polished surface is difficult to achieve, and especially maintain, on a neusilber piece.

[streptile]

Because that would be against the law ....

Not like making a swastika-core RK in 1950...*







* I am not taking a position on the date of manufacture ... just a figure of speech.

[AlikN]

.... If I am correct about such pieces (and I know you disagree), they are still pieces not intended for award use...

Lets say for a moment that your theory about separate commercial line with "B" dies in early days was a reality and they were making those for retail, so before the private sales were prohibited S&L would have to make some amount of crosses, not a few or five or a dozen, ...maybe they sold a few in the early days, but the amount after prohibition had to be turn in to PKZ, no matter what it looks like or how it's marked, ... and than those crosses were used for awards, just like we see the amount of C.E.Juncker 'commercial line' L/12 crosses - marked for retail and used for awards, the same would happened with all commercial lines, PKZ didn't care what line it came from and how it was marked - cross is a cross and I don't see what would stop PKZ from using 'B's for the awards if they would had them ...So there should be an amount, even a small one of early "B" type crosses not only in early groupings and also later on, it shouldn't be a rarity to see a nicely worn "B" cross from the vet that has a story to tell on it's own, but we don't see those, here we have only a few unverifiable stories, so where the amount of an early made "B" crosses, ...how many early 'B's do you think S&L made? ...looks like very very little - why need an extra set of dies?

[Leroy]

Without going into any great discussion, this is a very "mushy" area on which to base any sort of conclusions at all. There is virtually no information in existance regarding exactly how, or to what extent, the PKZ order of October, 1941, was enforced (or even complied with). Clearly, the Juncker L/12 models ended up (and Juncker was nicely paid for them) in great quantity in the PKZ. Judging solely on pieces that appear to have come as awards from the PKZ, some other commercial pieces, to some unknown extent, also went there. Except for the seemingly never-ending supply of L/12's, no one has any idea at all of how this was orchestrated, how many crosses came in, what was ultimately done with them, or what other arrangements were made with manufacturers (especially licensed manufactuers like S&L) who continued in their separate role as official suppliers. The main thrust of the order was the prohibition of private sale. Compliance was a different matter completely, and it is clear that at least some private sales (or "gifts" or some other mechanism) allowed crosses to be obtained outside the PKZ for years and years (certainly through 1944). Please also recall that the last S&L commercial catalog, published in the first quarter of 1941, just as the LDO was coming into full swing (and which showed S&L as having the new number "16") showed a cross which uncannily looks like a "B", with an unfinished ring, yet there are no L/16 marked crosses. Also recall that Bowen showed, in his lists of crosses held by RKT as their wartime pieces, both unmarked (no maker or silver content) and "935" marked crosses (no "4"). Although this is always attributed to failing memory, or some other excuse, these RKT's were not yet of great old age or befuddled when Bowen spoke with them. So there are such pieces in groupings and it is a mistake to think that there are not (over and beyond the Bob Hritz cross, the Andreas Klein cross, etc.).

Now, out the door to the MAX.......

[Bucky]

I have the knight cross of the knight cross carrier Johann Austermann.

http://www.ritterkreuztraeger-1939-4...ann-Johann.htm

Property also still another photo by Johan Austermann.



Perhaps that helps

Bucky

[IMG]<p align="center"><font size="5"><img src="http://tagesmutter-bottrop.de/WAF/Großbild.JPG"></font></p>[/IMG]

[IMG]<p align="center"><font size="5"><img src="http://tagesmutter-bottrop.de/WAF/Großbild-detail.JPG"></font></p>[/IMG]

[StefanK.]

do you also own the handcrafted oakleaves he is wearing in the photo?

Stefan