Another Spanish Cross By Meybauer

[W. C. Stump]

I have been continuing my investigation into whether the firm of Paul Meybauer had two different dies for their Spanish Crosses with and without swords. Finally I located one in bronze and it is quite obvious that the badge originally had swords and that they were simply removed, JUST AS THEY WERE ON THE SILVER SPANISH CROSS I PRESENTED EARLIER. Here are the photographs of the other badge compliments of the GERMAN DAGGER FORUM where the new evidence was obtained. The progression of that thread can be seen on the Medals and badge forum at the German Daggers Forum.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Seems the guy who took these swords off had less of a liquid lunch than the other.
how about posting the silver version for comparrison ?

[Gordon Williamson]

One thing baffles me. Why would they attach the eagles first, then remove the swords? Surely it would make more sense to crop off the swords before adding the eagles?

Gordon

[W. C. Stump]

THREAD STILL ONGOING ON GERMAN DAGGERS

Here is the silver variation I posted many times that got besmirched as being a post war altered badge.

[W. C. Stump]

WHY?

Originally posted by Gordon Williamson
One thing baffles me. Why would they attach the eagles first, then remove the swords? Surely it would make more sense to crop off the swords before adding the eagles?

Gordon

This is a very good question. I have only my opinion and I don't want to base the answer to this question on an opinion.

[W. C. Stump]

ANOTHER SPANISH CROSS WITHOUT SWORDS

Here is a Spanish Cross marked L/13 that has indications that it was also modified from a badge with swords.

[Bruce Simcox]

How about....

....supply/delivery problems? Is it unreasonable to think that perhaps the quartermaster, or whomever was responsible for procuring the award pieces in the first place, only received pieces with swords due to some screw-up along the line of supply. So here it is a week or so before award day and awards sans swords are needed so voila! some genius figures "hey, we'll just remove the swords, nicely of course, and we'll still be able to decorate Fritz."

Sixty years ago one didn't just pick up the telephone and order a new round of medals without swords....far more complicated and lenghty process than that, so field modifications were probably the easiest and timeliest solution.

Just my humble opinion.

--------------------

Bruce

[Rick Research]

I doubt that, extremely much. It seems to me that streeeeeettttcccchhinnggg in wish fulfilment to "explain" something that cannot be... logically... explained is trying to fit the Glass Slipper on one of Cinderella's step-sisters.

Impossible? No.

Likely? No.

Possible? Yes.

Unlikely? Yes.

It boils down to what and why anyone collects anything:

for a real, original piece of history, or for maybes, what ifs, and let's pretends.

Snipping swords off any awards with swords to make swordless awards is not a practice that was ever normal for any other German award at any other time, back into Imperial days. The mere idea is contrary to everything we know about German craftsmanship and workmanship. 1939 was not 2002.

It would certainly be typical of the sort of "close enough" we get nowadays, but so what?

I don't collect Spanish crosses, but if I did, these would not be for my collection...

when benchmark examples are readily available, what is the point in idle speculation?

And on THIS subject, the speculation is ALWAYS going to be idle. There will be no catalog found stating "and ve vil cladly snippet ov chour svordz ef chu vish mit-out." There will never be any way to determine whether this ugly, atypical, and sloppily bizarre blade chopping was done in The Factory in 1939, or by some guy in the field, God alone knows why, in 1944, or by one of the innumerable so-called collectors who continue to ruin original items to this day by "improving" them, again, GAKW.

[W. C. Stump]

LENGTHLY DISSERTATION STILL ONLY AN OPINION

Sorry Rick , despite all your eloquent words you are still speculating and giving an opinion. In the field of research, opinions and unsubstantiated theories must be proven to be accepted as fact. In the case of the Silver Spanish Cross without swords by the firm of Meybauer I have only seen one, the one my friend owns with FULL DOCUMENTATION that it came from the recipient. It came cased, in its original case, mint as shown, and the swords were removed prior to the last finishing. When presented at least three times before the threat got trashed and closed down. The last time I asked for another example by Meybauer in either silver or bronze and weeks later one showed up on the Germ,an Dagger Forum. It had been an altered badge with swords. Yet another by a different manufacturer was featured in the same thread (pictured above marked L/13) and shows alterations BEFORE final finishing. By the way, Detlev Neimann sold this and I have every bit of confidence in his selling only a period piece.

Now for Bruce's comments. There were many manufacture of the Spanish Cross. Some made the badges early in 1939 and many produced the badge after the LDO took control. The badge was made until the end of the war, and as we all know, is still being made today. Did each company have a special die for both the variation with swords and another for the variation without swords? These questions need to be answered. Did they have an award ceremony coming up and nipped of the swords at the last minute> Of course not. The supplier received orders from the government and filled them. It was at that time any alteration was made NOT in the field just before an award ceremony.

Finally, what I said directed to Rick, "In the field of research, opinions and unsubstantiated theories must be proven to be accepted as fact.' applies to everyone, myself included. However, in the end, the preponderance of evidence, direct and circumstantial, decides the fate of any opinion or theory.

[Brian S]

I've been reading all the threads on the SC with absolute incredulity. My L/13 900 marked SC is a work of art and probably the finest item in my collection just for the way it says "look at me". To suggest Meybauer or any maker hacked swords from finished pieces strains the limit of my ability to take seriously any argument suggesting this practice.

[David Tiffin]

I guess we may never know the answer but, in this hobby there are those that only want the text book exsamples and others who are willing to bend alittle.

[Sebastian Bianchi]

bend alittle.

A little? This more twisted than a pretzel.

With all due respect to the moderators here, and in light of recent events, I am going to close this thread for further postings while we await the release of the Spanish Cross article.

Thank you,