Zimmermann or Godet?

[George Stimson]

"This may have forced them to put out a low number of EK1s (and EK2s) to ensure to get the higher end award contracts . Refusing to make certain awards would not have been a wise move . "

I can't buy this. I mean, there were no prerequisites required by the PKZ before a company was permitted to manufacture anything other than that the award the firm wanted to make be up to a certain quality standard. They didn't have to have a certain number of other awards under production also. (And "refusing"? Nobody was forcing these companies to make any of their products.)

[Douglas 5]

OK - put in just as a senario ..... then it is Godets own choise to make or outsource EKs . Were they capable of making EK at all ? ... as the question remains >> who made this one ?

Douglas

[Rich G]

OK - put in just as a senario ..... then it is Godets own choise to make or outsource EKs . Were they capable of making EK at all ? ... as the question remains >> who made this one ?

Douglas

I think it was the same company that made the 'Godet' RK. Maybe it was Godet, maybe not. If it was, it may be that Godet did make this, early on, not expecting the kind of numbers of production that were eventually required from the PKZ. Perhaps they decided that they were unable to fulfill the volumns expected from the PKZ and then outsourced.

Of course pure speculation!!

Question: Do we have a list of Godet marked awards? How many were there and of those how many were common awards and how many were high-grades awards? We might see a pattern emerging if we knew.

Rich

[5tefan]

For me there is one possible scenario, why Godet outsource the EK1 production!

And I like to start with some facts:

- Godet and Juncker are located @ Berlin
- LDO could offer different Qualilty Level / Frozen and Polished high level Quality
- Therefore they could build ther own prices for an alternat EK1
- LDO are typical for screwback variant
- EK2 was not a backup combat award, due to the uniform needs to equipped with the ribbon, that is why EK2 with LDO marks are rare
- There are no PKZ screwback EK1 - exeption some early EK1 like Deumer or PM
- L/50 marked screwback are rare

Now my theorie:

Godet was located @ Berlin and have a very special mission.
Godet was nominated for higher award like Oaks and KC.
Godet produced Combat Awards, but no EK1
But as LDO distributor they need to offer the complete possible Combat Awards configuration. It means to wear a KC with Oaks the EK1 was needed to completed the Award configuration of additional uniform sets. Godet outsource therfore EK1 from Zimmermann or B.H. Mayer EK1. I do not know what about the EK2 L/50, due to it was not needed to complete the uniform. I think they offer only ribbons. But if someone have a marked L/50 EK2 it could be rare like the stamped EK1 "21".

Personal I'm not disappointed, that Godet did not made any EK1. Screwback Zimmermann L/50 marked EK1 and B.H. Mayer L/50 marked EK1 are rare And they are my most wanted EK1 Even the 21 marked EK1!!!
@ streptile if you have a 21 marked Zimmermann you should be very happy.
Because I addicted to this EK1 I would pay a lot of money to get one.

Sorry, but my english is maybe not good enought to tell you how my point of view looks like.

[Dietrich Maerz]

But as LDO distributor they need to offer the complete possible Combat Awards configuration. It means to wear a KC with Oaks the EK1 was needed to completed the Award configuration of additional uniform sets.

Godet had the full line up of orders and medals long before the LDO was in existence. This picture was taken before August 1940.

[Douglas 5]

Hey Stefan ;.....
" Because I addicted to this EK1 I would pay a lot of money to get one . "
You should be careful saying that . I am now tempted to mark my unmarked 26 with a 21 and ... lets say ... 800 Bucks and it is yours .

Douglas

[streptile]

Godet somehow lacks the ability or will to produce EKs but they manufacture their own totally different German Cross?

Yes, this fact, and the photo Dietrich shows, must be explained by anyone who believes Gebrüder Godet 21 did not make their own EKs.

[ekhunter]

Godet

Weren't the large red presentation cases that were given at the very beginning of the war with the ek II, ek I, and RK's attributed to Godet? How would Godet have an RK so early? I believe the picture that Dietrich posted would be hard to dispute since they had the full aray of medals already that early. No doubt that some relationship existed between Zimmermann and Godet. What it was, is anyone's guess, shared parts, shared machinery??? It seems the vast majority believes that Zimmermann supplied Godet to some extent, but could it have been the other way around??? Great thread!!!!

[ekhunter]

Hi Robert,

I don't know that anyone says, "Zimmermann made Godet crosses during WWII." I think the more accurate statement would be:

Either:

1. Zimmermann made Godets
2. Godet made Zimmermanns
3. Godet sourced components from Zimmermann and did the assembly themselves
4. Zimmermann sourced components from Godet and did the assembly themselves
5. both companies sourced components from the same source and did their own assembly.

If the paint is substantively different on enough Godets and Zimmermanns over a substantial amount of time (i.e. if there is sufficient evidence to rule out a change in paint at some point in the war by a single company manufacturing both crosses), then I think we can rule out 1. and 2. above and focus on the other options.

As Carl has pointed out, by WWII the famous maker of WWI-era decorations, J. Godet und Söhn, had ceased to exist as an independent entity, being subsumed by maker WILM (another storied maker of WWI-era decorations) in 1925 and renamed Gebrüder Godet & Co. It was this company that received the license to manufacture WWII decorations under the PKZ code "21". As far as I know, the "other" Godet, J. Godet & Sohn AG, that was founded sometime between 1925 and 1934 after the original one was bought by WILM, did not make any WWII decorations. In light of these facts and suppositions, it becomes unclear whether Gebrüder Godet "21" retained any of the manufacturing facilities to which we know they had access before 1925, and thus tends, in my opinion, to lend credence to the theory that their work was outsourced to another company (i.e., Zimmermann).

So, for me, one salient question that still lacks an answer is: when WILM bought Godet in 1925, did they buy the facilities, or just the rights to use the name? If the latter be true, then we can speculate that they (WILM) could have chosen an excellent source for their wares and marketed them under the famous name.

Of course this theory would be undermined if it were shown that Godet's EK1 paint did indeed differ from Zimmermann's, but it would not necessarily follow that Gebrüder Godet had the facilities to manufacture their own components. Assembly, of course, is a different question.

I might take a #4, no wait, maybe a #5 with different paint. !!!

[Leroy]

On a sidenote, it would be great if someone could post (in a separate thread) examples of the Submarine, Infantry Assault and Panzer Assault badges shown in the middle of the photo in Post #110.

[ben bijker]

stumbled upon this thread while trying to find the difference between Godet and Zimmermann screwbacks...

But I don't think I will find any, except for maybe the paint..

Here's a bit more proof both crosses are from 1 maker...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=726046

[Andreas Klein]

1. Godet sourced components from Zimmermann and did the assembly themselves
2. Zimmermann sourced components from Godet and did the assembly themselves
3. both companies sourced components from the same source and did their own assembly.

That would be the possibilities which i would underline because both firms were listed as makers which got production orders in the documents of the PKZ.