Zimmermann or Godet?

[George Stimson]

And....

Don't forget that frames can be rotated, so the features might be on different arms. But all of the ones I've seen had the same relationship to each other, no matter what the frame to core orientation was.

[Robert P.]

Douglas,

Examining my Godet and Zimmermann crosses I find some of your pointers to be true, some not true. How many examples have you used to draw these conclusions? There are too many inconsistancies when comparing my pin sets with your examples above. Catches, especially, are non-typical. The anchor pins being off-center is inconsistant with what you show. I feel we need to look at many examples before drawing so many conclusions.

Robert

[Flemming]

Morning Flemming ....UB core ?: >>> Grab a coffee and have a read at this thread :
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=446345

Douglas

Thank you, I'll read this thread asap

/Flemming

[WEISNER]

Douglas,

Examining my Godet and Zimmermann crosses I find some of your pointers to be true, some not true. How many examples have you used to draw these conclusions? There are too many inconsistancies when comparing my pin sets with your examples above. Catches, especially, are non-typical. The anchor pins being off-center is inconsistant with what you show. I feel we need to look at many examples before drawing so many conclusions.

Robert

I appreciate your hard work Douglas however agree with Robert! "I feel we need to look at many examples before drawing so many conclusions"

looking at my 20 marked and L/50 marked both have 90 degree angles at the anchor foot flanges, My Zimmermann has many lines that run horizontal on the pin barrel where the Godet is rather smooth on the barrel.
The Godet Swastika is smaller than the Zimmerman which touches all inside corners... Also the Zimmerman frame arms are approx 1mm wider than the Godet however the frames are identical otherwise?
I have not re uped Membership so can't post photos but would send to You Douglas via email when I can if you like?
I hope we can come up with a "smokeing gun" difference in these makers crosses! Seems the Zimmermans had many lines that run horizontal on the pin barrel where the Godet had less or was smooth on the barrel, anyone else with these makers crosses in hand agree?
Best Regards!
Kevin.

[Robert P.]

Yes, Kevin, I agree with your findings. You have echoed some of Douglas' findings. For what it's worth here are some shots of each example from my collection for study. First, a Godet...

Robert

[Robert P.]

And, a Zimmermann...

[WEISNER]

Bingo! Perfect photos Robert and thanks for posting them! My L/50 barrel is much the same as yours or smoother yet.
I wonder what caused these marks? Extraction from a die? I think this may be one way of telling the difference between the makers however many more collectors will need to chime in with the same findings!

Thanks for posting these photos Robert and I do hope all is well with You!

Regards!

Kev

[Robert P.]

Bingo! Perfect photos Robert and thanks for posting them! My L/50 barrel is much the same as yours or smoother yet.
I wonder what caused these marks? Extraction from a die? I think this may be one way of telling the difference between the makers however many more collectors will need to chime in with the same findings!

Thanks for posting these photos Robert and I do hope all is well with You!

Regards!

Kev

Kevin,

I think this hinge stock was extruded while white hot in very much the same way channel, flat bar and angle iron is today, but on a much smaller scale, then cut into useable lengths for badges. What's really interesting to me is how the pins and pin feet were soldered together with such precision. Godet and Zimmermann pin assemblies were really built to withstand hard wear.

Robert

[Rich G]

Wow, the shadow is right where I want to see! Can you tell me if there's a rise in the beading at that spot, as there is on this cross?

George,

It's not there and I checked each arm. It does, however, appear on my '20'. As they are 2 completely different frames I guess that's why.

Rich

[George Stimson]

Yes of course, a different frame. And based on that, I would only venture that your cross has what appears to be a Godet/Zimmermann core and not draw any inference as to whether it was actually manufactured by either of those firms as any kind of variant.
(Until someone can prove otherwise, with solid evidence, I'm content not to know.)

[Darrell]

I appreciate your hard work Douglas however agree with Robert! "I feel we need to look at many examples before drawing so many conclusions"
Best Regards!
Kevin.

Exactly. How can we judge cross makers on the shape of a catch or the finishing of the hinge? C'mon guys.

That's how we ended up with 12different frames and 10 different cores for one cross in the past .....

[Dietrich Maerz]

There seems to be an urge in the community to detect as much connections, cross-linkages, cooperations and variations as possible. Also it seems to me that some collectors have a very hard time to accept the notion of an "unknown maker" and need to come up with some kind of "proof" that a previously unknown maker now is know - by a pin, a hinge or a dent somewhere.

What IS known, however, is that the main companies bought their pins, needles and such from smaller companies (their advertisement can be found all over the German documents). Sure, they did not buy all of it. What I am saying is this: when two mayor companies have the same pin system that DOES not mean they worked together or exchanged parts. They could as well have bought form a third party (and most likely did!).

Regarding the multiple core and frame variations based on minor differences, I think it is not correct to conclude that these companies had multiple cores or frames. Far from it. For me it is absolutely inconceivable that some companies had so many dies. 99% of theses variations are due to paint, assembly and 60+ years of handling IMHO. Dies were made to last. Companies stamped hundred thousands of Wound Badges with one die and were not able to produce the same die quality for the EK1 were a lot less were made?

Dietrich

[Darrell]

There seems to be an urge in the community to detect as much connections, cross-linkages, cooperations and variations as possible. Also it seems to me that some collectors have a very hard time to accept the notion of an "unknown maker" and need to come up with some kind of "proof" that a previously unknown maker now is know - by a pin, a hinge or a dent somewhere.

What IS known, however, is that the main companies bought their pins, needles and such from smaller companies (their advertisement can be found all over the German documents). Sure, they did not buy all of it. What I am saying is this: when two mayor companies have the same pin system that DOES not mean they worked together or exchanged parts. They could as well have bought form a third party (and most likely did!).

Regarding the multiple core and frame variations based on minor differences, I think it is not correct to conclude that these companies had multiple cores or frames. Far from it. For me it is absolutely inconceivable that some companies had so many dies. 99% of theses variations are due to paint, assembly and 60+ years of handling IMHO. Dies were made to last. Companies stamped hundred thousands of Wound Badges with one die and were not able to produce the same die quality for the EK1 were a lot less were made?

Dietrich

Exactly Dietrich. Nice fancy pictures with all these "differences" soon become fact to the collecting community. In many cases someone take ONE EK and compares it to ONE other and draws definitive conclusions.


Buuuuuuuuuuuuzzzzzzzzzz .... WRONG ...

That's not how it works guys. You need to compare hundreds of examples ... not just a couple lying around in your collection.

[5tefan]

IMO Godet did not produced any EK1 in WW2!
All EK1 marked L/50 are produced from Zimmermann or B.H. Mayer!

[streptile]

Regarding the multiple core and frame variations based on minor differences... 99% of theses variations are due to paint, assembly and 60+ years of handling IMHO.

This is a very important point that bears repetition. Not every tiny variation of a core or a frame is attributable to a different die.