Iron Cross markings

[Gordon Williamson]

From Uniformen Markt 1 March 1941- the official "start-day" for LDO marks

"Jeder konzessionierte Jersteller erheilt soeben ein Kennzeichen (Herstellungsnummer) das von 1.3.41 ab auf den einzelnen Orden und Ehrenzeichen anzubringen ist, bei einseitigen Originalen und 16mm Verkleinerungen auf der Rückseite, unten in der Mitte, bei doppelseitigen Originalorden und 16mm Verkleinerungen in Kreuzform (EK2, Ritterkreuz, Grosskreuz) wird die Zahl in den eingehängten Ring eingeschlagen".

So, the official correct place for an LDO mark on an EK1 is in the lower part in the centre (so L59 crosses are actually incorrectly stamped). Note that ribbon Crosses, including the RK and Grand Cross were to be marked on the suspension loop. Thus the L/52 Zimmermann RK which carries the mark on the loop is correct-and this may be why Schickle put his L/15 mark on the eye for the suspension loop- but the Juncker L/12 is incorrectly stamped being on the frame.

I suspect this order also explains why K&Q elected to place their mark on the suspension loop of their RK rather than the frame.

Gordon

[Tim B.]

Gordon,

Great info! I guess the German people were not mindless robots afterall and sometimes things didn't always meet the rigorous textbook standards some of us collectors seem to hold so dear to our hearts and minds.

Thanks for sharing.
Tim

[Wilhelm Brase]

LDO maker marks

Hi Gordon!

Great info directly from the horses mouth.

I have an Iron Cross with what looks like a L-59 (difficult to make out) maker marked on the backplate of a screwback cross. The mark was placed halfway between the female screw and the edge of the lower arm of the cross. Directly to the left of the female screw (if viewed from behind) there are three dots stamped in the shape of a pyramid.

What is your opinion?
Thanks
Wilhelm

[Eric Stahlhut]

Hallo Wilhelm

See my post 'Interesting EK1' and you can compare marks.

[Wilhelm Brase]

EK markings L59

Hi Eric!

Thanks, I found your post with pics.

The three dots looks exactly the same.My L59 however, looks like a L-59.It was hand stamped and is rather uneaven in depth and clarity.It might be L59.My cross is a screwback and the marks are in a different position.

Wilhelm

[jimbo_cymru]

L/12 Query for Gordon Williamson

G'day Gang,
I saw Gordon's name on this thread and hoped he could solve a mystery for me. I bought an L/12 marked RK (supposedly original) from a Brisbane (Australia) dealer a few years back. The RK originally surfaced at the South Brisbane Militaria auction but was passed in - asking price was a little steep, GFC etc. Anyway, I found the cross up for sale by a dealer around 6 months later - the peculiar thing about this one being that the suspension ring has been reattached by a silversmith to the frame as it had broken away from the frame; very distinctive looking old thing that it is. This is where you come in Gordon, as the bloke selling it said that it was ex-Grodon Williamson's UK collection from around 25 years ago and had been found in the deceased estate of a well known German militaria collector.

Now, the RK only bears the L/12 mark and no sign of the '800' silver content mark - yes I know, alarm bells - anyway, Gordon, I'd appreciate if you'd look at the photos and tell me if you recall this cross from some distant part of your past (remember this bloke is telling me it was acquired 25 years ago and that was back in 2009, so around 28-29 years ago now).

The appearance overall is very consistent with my original EK characteristics - age patina, veining through the magnetic core looks legit (not faked age as per a lot of the European knock offs). The ribbon is not original to the cross, however is an original ribbon that I acquired later to compliment the cross. The suspension ring is not stamped and looks like a replacement for the original silver one.

Gordo mate, you are the only one who can solve this mystery for me, so I'd love to hear your thoughts here.

Cheers mate,
James

[Dietrich Maerz]

Gordo mate, you are the only one who can solve this mystery for me, so I'd love to hear your thoughts here.

Mr. Williamson has left this place a long time ago......

But thankfully there are others who can help you with solving this mystery. To make it short and unsweet: this cross is not a Juncker but rather a ugly fake. Why? Because is shows none of the characteristics of a genuine Juncker Knights Cross, the offset L/12 only being one of many wrong things.

[iron_cross67]

Hello James, Your RK looks like my repro L/12 with a ring solderd on? Mick

[jimbo_cymru]

Hi Mick,
My suspension ring had snapped off and was reattached by a jeweller. I'm rather dissappointed to hear this is a fake, as the general appearance of the cross matches the aging (veins etc through the Iron core, finish of the paintwork on the core) of some of my 100% original EK2s.

It looks really nice - the photos don't do it justice - but if it's fake, it's fake. Happy to pass along the dealer info as he is supposed to be very knowledgeable. If this is a blatant fake - that should've been easy to pickup - I'd rather inform other collectors.

Cheers guys,
James

[iron_cross67]

Mr. Williamson has left this place a long time ago......

But thankfully there are others who can help you with solving this mystery. To make it short and unsweet: this cross is not a Juncker but rather a ugly fake. Why? Because is shows none of the characteristics of a genuine Juncker Knights Cross, the offset L/12 only being one of many wrong things.

Sorry James, This is bad news for you, I hope you did not pay a lot. My copy was £40.00 GBP's and is ok for me. Mick

[jimbo_cymru]

LOL - lucky you, Mick! Mine was AU$1200 hence why I'm happy to identify the respected dealer because if it's as bad as everybody says, I was basically scammed.

I've been in the colecting game for awhile and primarily collect headgear. I took the chance on this piece as I know that it'd been up for auction at a well-known, quality auction setup by reputable collectors and so assumed the dealer behind it was legit. The fact that it was passed in at the auction didn't bother me, as many items did on that day so when I had the chance to purchase this piece a few months down the track it seemed like a no-brainer. We live and learn - this is the main failing with this hobby and everybody, I mean everbody gets burned at least once so it's an expensive hobby to get 'up to speed' with. Sad, but true.

BTW: Sincere apologies if Gordon Williamson has passed away, I had no idea. FRom what I've read, he was a veritable font of knowledge and very well respected.

James

[Dietrich Maerz]

I am sorry if it came across that Mr. Williamson has passed away - he is alive and kicking (I guess), he only left this forum because of private reasons.

James, when did you buy that cross?

[iron_cross67]

Hi James, Gordon Williamson has not died. He has a new book out now for the Kriegsmarine war badges, Very Nice book.

Here is a very nice L/12 RK Still for sale here.

A nice combat worn Juncker L/12 and ribbon (plus an EK2 ribbon for RK wear). US$10,000 by Bank Transfer or Paypal + fees.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=l%2F12

[jimbo_cymru]

Hi guys,
I bought the cross in December of 2008.

Glad to here that Gordon is still alive!!!

Cheers,
James

[Dietrich Maerz]

At that time you could have informed you already very well without the help of Gordon Williamson. Far cheaper than a fake Knights Cross!