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**Robert P.** · 06-24-2010, 07:45 AM

Stefano,

I believe your EKI (above in post #14) with the Meybauer core has the early S&L frame. Just my thinking, as the 2:00 inner beading corner has the 'connecting bead' feature of an S&L. Like you say, the EKII has the '23' frame with a Meybauer core.

Robert

**streptile** · 06-24-2010, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by robert pierce View Post

Stefano,

I believe your EKI (above in post #14) with the Meybauer core has the early S&L frame. Just my thinking, as the 2:00 inner beading corner has the 'connecting bead' feature of an S&L. Like you say, the EKII has the '23' frame with a Meybauer core.

Robert

I agree with Robert. The large '23 bead' is clear on the EK2, plus the overall shape just like a Deumer.

Nice crosses, by the way

.

Attached Files

EKI-II_23tr.jpg (107.0 KB, 197 views)

**WEISNER** · 06-24-2010, 07:53 PM

Trevor this is an excellent thread! Great job picking out this EKI with a 23 frame! I went straight to my Meybauers to have a look and no such luck!

I would tend to think that the cross is a Meybauer with a 23 frame and not a 23 EKI as such, This is due only to the fact that Meybauer was contracted to produce EKI's and 23 as far as we know was not.
Perhaps Meybauer needed some frames for whatever reason to fill an EKI order.... and since they had a relationship and were close by each other picked up some frames while supplying cores to 23?

Either way You!!! Trevor have found a very interesting variant cross! Being a Meybauer fan I am now on the look out for one!!!!

Best Regards Trevor and thanks for shareing your discovery with us here!

Kevin

**streptile** · 06-24-2010, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by WEISNER View Post

I am now on the look out for one.

Thanks, Kevin.

What I am now looking for is one of these with a '23' core. I think that would be fascinating.

If you want one just like the one I've shown, HERE is one for sale.

**streptile** · 06-24-2010, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by WEISNER View Post

the fact that Meybauer was contracted to produce EKI's and 23 as far as we know was not.

Hi Kevin,

Is there any official list of makers authorized to make the EK1 that Meybauer is on, and '23' is not?

Or is your comment based on personal observation?

**WEISNER** · 06-24-2010, 10:38 PM

Hi Trevor, The Ace of spades would be a Meybauer core! I hope You find one!
Thanks for the offer also for the cross, at the moment I have money tied up in paying off a tunic and some field gear, Also the Portland Oregon Military trade show is this weekend so lots on the plate! I will shoot You a PM.

As for official maker list... I found one I think here, showing all known EKI PKZ makers, PKZ and LDO and LDO only makers that were authorized for EKI production.
I have hand written notes from this thread on a maker list, and 23 was not a (Known) EKI contractor. At that time of coarse!

I think a cross with the known 23 core may make this list change, and I hope You, or anyone for that matter finds one now that we know what to look for thanks to your observations!

So.... have You any ideas on unknown EKII maker 75 LOL? I love their EKII's and wonder who the maker was LOL!

Again Thank's Trev!

Kevin

**streptile** · 06-24-2010, 10:56 PM

Hi Kevin,

Originally posted by WEISNER View Post

Thanks for the offer also for the cross

Maybe there was a misunderstanding, but I'm not offering this one, in this thread, for sale (I just got it

). Rather I was just showing you a link to one on a dealer's site:

http://web.iwebcenters.com/grenadier...tem180034.ctlg

As for the list of EK1 makers you refer to ... is that a list that was compiled by collectors/researchers, or is that a period document? I am interested in some wartime documentation, since I already know that we (as a community) don't think of '23' as maker of the EK1. But if I could see a (let's say, pre-LDO) list of EK1 makers that included Meybauer, but excluded '23', then that would tell me something.

Here is a similar list, for the EK2, from an old POST by Dietrich:

What I would love to see is something similar for the EK1.

Incidentally, the list shown above is the same one I referred to as containing Arbeitsgemeinschaft für das Eiserne Kreuz of Berlin, which I think may be '23'.

**streptile** · 07-05-2010, 02:41 PM

I had one more thought about the '23' EK1 over the weekend.

Really, there are two parts to this cross that can be thought of as '23' EK components: the obverse frame, and the reverse backing plate. Stefano's photo is a great illustration of the fact that a traditional Meybauer backing plate would not fit on a '23' frame:

The '23' (R) is shaped totally differently -- just like a Deumer 2nd frame. So really we have a '23' frame and backing plate, and a Meybauer core and pin -- a pretty even split between components.

**streptile** · 12-21-2015, 01:41 PM

I've decided to repost this thread from five years ago with the photos back in it.

For some reason a few of my old research threads have disappeared (after the server change, I think).

Originally posted by streptile View Post

EK1 by maker '23'

ORIGINAL POST JUNE 2010

We all know the maker '23' -- Arbeitsgemeinschaft für Heeresbedarf in der Graveur- und Ziselierinnung of Berlin -- made EK2s. Their early ones are unmarked, their later ones are marked '23'. In fact, they made a lot of EK2s. Indeed they are probably one of the earliest makers of the 1939 EK: Arbeitsgemeinschaft für das Eiserne Kreuz of Berlin appears as a maker on a list of EK makers from 1940. In all probability, this is the same company.

A forum search will turn up a large number of '23' EK2s. Here is a nice unmarked one, courtesy of Robert Pierce:

Unmarked '23' with Meybauer core....jpg

We have learned to identify unmarked '23' EK2s in the same way we identify any early, unmarked EK: by comparison with later, marked examples. In the case of '23,' we have learned that their frames are easily identifiable. They are shaped basically like Deumer's second frame, with a few little exceptions. The most obvious hallmark of the '23' EK frame is a large bead near the top of the 9 o'clock beading strand, the so-called '23 Bead'. Once one knows what to look for, identifying a '23' is simple. Here is a detail of the '23' bead on Robert's EK2, shown above:

23 bead EK2.jpg

Indeed, the '23' frame has never been seen on any EK2 marked with any number other than '23,' so it seems clear that '23' was the only company to use that frame. This bears repeating: the '23' frame is found only on marked '23' crosses, or on unmarked crosses considered to be by maker '23'. It is never found on any cross with any other mark. It was, then, the proprietary frame of maker '23'.

**streptile** · 12-21-2015, 01:43 PM

We have also discovered that '23' used many different cores. One particular core is thought to be their own, proprietary core. But many, many (perhaps even most) '23' EK2s use cores supplied to them by another maker, namely Paul Meybauer.

Here is a selection of Meybauer cores found in '23' EK2s, again courtesy of Robert Pierce. The leftmost core is 23's core; the other two are Meybauers:

standard '23' core on L, Meybauer cores on R.jpg

HERE is an excellent discussion of the Meybauer cores used by maker '23'.

So it is clear that '23' had a business relationship with maker Paul Meybauer. This makes perfect sense. '23' and Meybauer were both located in Berlin, and '23' was an "Arbeitsgemeinschaft," or work group, usually understood to be a collective of jewelers working collaboratively under one name. It has thus been suggested that Meybauer may even have at some point been a member of the '23' work group, although that seems unlikely to me.

But '23' is not thought to have made any EK1s. Why should this be? They were probably one of the first makers to be granted a license. They made many, many EK2s. They made their own frames and had a fruitful business relationship with Paul Meybauer, who supplied EK components to them.

**streptile** · 12-21-2015, 01:44 PM

Please have a look at this EK1 I recently acquired:

DSCN7948.jpg

Now have a look at the 9 o'clock beading strand:

23 bead ek1.jpg

This is clearly a '23' frame -- the overall shape like Deumer, the '23 Bead,' and a few other typical little '23' hallmarks and flaws -- and (I will say again) '23' is the only maker known to have used this frame.

The core, as may be seen, is by Paul Meybauer. This is hardly surprising, given that Meybauer supplied most of the cores for EK2s by maker '23'.

If, for the sake of argument, we assumed that maker '23' also had to source their pins and hinges from a supplier, rather than make them themselves, who would that maker be? My guess would be Paul Meybauer. After all, they already bought their cores from Meybauer. Why not their pins as well?

**streptile** · 12-21-2015, 01:46 PM

Here is the reverse of the EK1 shown above, showing an early Paul Meybauer-made pin:

DSCN7950.jpg

In my opinion, this cross is almost certainly by maker '23', a maker not previously thought to have made EK1s.

Only two other possibilities exist: 1) Paul Meybauer sourced these frames from maker '23,' or 2) Paul Meybauer sold these frames to maker '23' for their EK2s. In both these scenarios, this cross could be by Paul Meybauer. But I find it unlikely, since, of all the EK1s with this frame I have seen to date, not a single one is marked with any number, although Meybauers with this pin may be found marked both '7' and 'L/13'. This makes perfect sense: why would this cross be marked with a Meybauer code, if it is not made by Paul Meybauer, but rather by maker '23'?

Interestingly, I don't think that these are particularly rare. I just think that they are always called (in my opinion incorrectly) Meybauers. A preliminary search by me turned up a few on this forum, misidentified (often by me) as Meybauers. I also found another one for sale on a dealer's site without even looking for it.

Finally, here is a side shot of this cross:

DSCN7951.jpg

One collector to whom I presented this theory insisted that "only Meybauer used this pin." If that is so, I have seen no evidence of it. Yes, Paul Meybauer used this pin. But how do we know that he was the only maker to do so? I don't. If anyone has some evidence to this effect, please post it here or PM me.

END ORIGINAL POST

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