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    EK1 by maker '23'

    EK1 by maker '23'

    We all know the maker '23' -- Arbeitsgemeinschaft für Heeresbedarf in der Graveur- und Ziselierinnung of Berlin -- made EK2s. Their early ones are unmarked, their later ones are marked '23'. In fact, they made a lot of EK2s. Indeed they are probably one of the earliest makers of the 1939 EK: Arbeitsgemeinschaft für das Eiserne Kreuz of Berlin appears as a maker on a list of EK makers from 1940. In all probability, this is the same company.

    A forum search will turn up a large number of '23' EK2s. Here is a nice unmarked one, courtesy of Robert Pierce:



    We have learned to identify unmarked '23' EK2s in the same way we identify any early, unmarked EK: by comparison with later, marked examples. In the case of '23,' we have learned that their frames are easily identifiable. They are shaped basically like Deumer's second frame, with a few little exceptions. The most obvious hallmark of the '23' EK frame is a large bead near the top of the 9 o'clock beading strand, the so-called '23 Bead'. Once one knows what to look for, identifying a '23' is simple. Here is a detail of the '23' bead on Robert's EK2, shown above:



    Indeed, the '23' frame has never been seen on any EK2 marked with any number other than '23,' so it seems clear that '23' was the only company to use that frame. This bears repeating: the '23' frame is found only on marked '23' crosses, or on unmarked crosses considered to be by maker '23'. It is never found on any cross with any other mark. It was, then, the proprietary frame of maker '23'.

    We have also discovered that '23' used many different cores. One particular core is thought to be their own, proprietary core. But many, many (perhaps even most) '23' EK2s use cores supplied to them by another maker, namely Paul Meybauer.

    Here is a selection of Meybauer cores found in '23' EK2s, again courtesy of Robert Pierce:



    HERE is an excellent discussion of the Meybauer cores used by maker '23'.

    So it is clear that '23' had a business relationship with maker Paul Meybauer. This makes perfect sense. '23' and Meybauer were both located in Berlin, and '23' was an "Arbeitsgemeinschaft," or work group, usually understood to be a collective of jewelers working collaboratively under one name. It has thus been suggested that Meybauer may even have at some point been a member of the '23' work group, although that seems unlikely to me.

    But '23' is not thought to have made any EK1s. Why should this be? They were probably one of the first makers to be granted a license. They made many, many EK2s. They made their own frames and had a fruitful business relationship with Paul Meybauer, who supplied EK components to them.

    Please have a look at this EK1 I recently acquired:



    Now have a look at the 9 o'clock beading strand:



    This is clearly a '23' frame -- the overall shape like Deumer, the '23 Bead,' and a few other typical little '23' hallmarks and flaws -- and (I will say again) '23' is the only maker known to have used this frame.

    The core, as may be seen, is by Paul Meybauer. This is hardly surprising, given that Meybauer supplied most of the cores for EK2s by maker '23'.

    If, for the sake of argument, we assumed that maker '23' also had to source their pins and hinges from a supplier, rather than make them themselves, who would that maker be? My guess would be Paul Meybauer. After all, they already bought their cores from Meybauer. Why not their pins as well?

    Here is the reverse of the EK1 shown above, showing an early Paul Meybauer-made pin:



    In my opinion, this cross is almost certainly by maker '23', a maker not previously thought to have made EK1s.

    Only two other possibilities exist: 1) Paul Meybauer sourced these frames from maker '23,' or 2) Paul Meybauer sold these frames to maker '23' for their EK2s. In both these scenarios, this cross could be by Paul Meybauer. But I find it unlikely, since, of all the EK1s with this frame I have seen to date, not a single one is marked with any number, although Meybauers with this pin may be found marked both '7' and 'L/13'. This makes perfect sense: why would this cross be marked with a Meybauer code, if it is not made by Paul Meybauer, but rather by maker '23'?

    Interestingly, I don't think that these are particularly rare. I just think that they are always called (in my opinion incorrectly) Meybauers. A preliminary search by me turned up a few on this forum, misidentified (often by me) as Meybauers. I also found another one for sale on a dealer's site without even looking for it.

    Finally, here is a side shot of this cross:



    One collector to whom I presented this theory insisted that "only Meybauer used this pin." If that is so, I have seen no evidence of it. Yes, Paul Meybauer used this pin. But how do we know that he was the only maker to do so? I don't. If anyone has some evidence to this effect, please post it here or PM me.
    Best regards,
    Streptile

    Looking for ROUND BUTTON 1939 EK1 Spange cases (LDO or PKZ)

    #2
    Thanks Trevor.

    A very informative thread.

    Wayne

    Comment


      #3
      Trevor

      Could you please provide a close-up of the 4 o'clock inner corner by the swaz?
      George

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by George Stimson View Post
        Could you please provide a close-up of the 4 o'clock inner corner by the swaz?
        Yes, that would be most revealing. But, I was thinking more of the 10:00 inner beading corner adjacent the swasi.

        VERY interesting discussion/topic, Trevor.

        Robert

        Comment


          #5
          Trevor,

          It's been thought Meybauer, in it's early WWII production of EK's, used S&L frames. Perhaps Meybauer hadn't 'tooled up' for frame production during their early years. As you've reasoned above, perhaps Meybauer used '23' frames as well to satisfy their early contracts. A likely scenario.

          Here is an early Meybauer cross (EKI) with an S&L frame. The pin assembly (early) on this cross, and core are pure Meybauer.

          EDIT: In the third photo from the top (trio of cores) the left core is a '23'.

          Robert
          Attached Files
          Last edited by robert pierce; 06-23-2010, 06:06 PM.

          Comment


            #6
            Hi Robert, George and Wayne.

            Thank you for the comments.

            Originally posted by robert pierce View Post
            perhaps Meybauer used '23' frames as well to satisfy their early contracts. A likely scenario.
            Robert, I agree this is a possible scenario, but find it far more likely that maker '23' made EK1s with Meybauer pins.

            George, here is the area you requested a closeup of. It's the best I can do without rephotographing the cross, which I'm happy to do (tomorrow) if necessary.

            The 4 o'clock inner corner:



            Robert, here is the area you asked to see. It shows the typical '23' beading irregularity there.

            The 10 o'clock inner corner:



            For those unfamiliar with this feature, I will reproduce Robert's illustration, which he was kind enough to send me when I was looking into this theory. Circled, the '23' beading irregularity in the 10 o'clock corner:

            Best regards,
            Streptile

            Looking for ROUND BUTTON 1939 EK1 Spange cases (LDO or PKZ)

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by robert pierce View Post
              EDIT: In the third photo from the top (trio of cores) the left core is a '23'.
              Ah, great. Thanks for the clarification. If only I could edit my text...

              You know, I bet there are EK1s out there with that core, too -- a "full 23," so to speak.
              Last edited by streptile; 06-23-2010, 06:39 PM.
              Best regards,
              Streptile

              Looking for ROUND BUTTON 1939 EK1 Spange cases (LDO or PKZ)

              Comment


                #8
                Outstanding cross, Trevor. Either scenario, you've got a gem of a cross. I thought I saw the flaw in the original photo, but now with the enlarged photo it's quite clearly a '23' frame. So, your opinion is '23' acquired parts from Meybauer to produce their own EKI's. I see nothing wrong with this thinking, Trevor.

                Robert

                Comment


                  #9
                  Nice Job, Trevor. Thank you for the thorough examination and presentation of your theory. Looks and sounds quite reasonable. This is what I love about the Forum.

                  Now I am going to look through my EK1s for a '23'!

                  Eric

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Maybe it's the pics (or my eyes), but these areas look different to me.
                    Attached Files
                    George

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by George Stimson View Post
                      Maybe it's the pics (or my eyes), but these areas look different to me.
                      Hi George,

                      I guess it's the photos, or maybe the lighting conditions. There is no question that this EK1 has a '23' frame -- I think the only question is, was it made by Meybauer, or by '23'?

                      I tend to think of the frame as the determining factor for a maker assignment. Thus a cross with a Juncker "crunch-bead" frame and a W&L core is a Juncker (for example), or an EK2 with a '23' frame and a Meybauer core is a '23'. But this cross has the additional complication of a Meybauer pin. To me, it makes perfect sense that '23' bought their pins from Meybauer, along with their cores. But it is possible to argue, or course, that Meybauer bought some frames from '23'. I'm not sure how (or if) that can be answered.
                      Best regards,
                      Streptile

                      Looking for ROUND BUTTON 1939 EK1 Spange cases (LDO or PKZ)

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Interesting Trevor :
                        This is a 23 frame cross ... has the fat bead . A late war made cross , as the non magnetic frame core is only Ni-aloy plated and the frame is no longer solid Ni aloy . This late worn die and materials used would indicate 23 being the continuos user and owner of the die . This one was made for Juncker .

                        Douglas
                        Attached Files

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Thanks, Douglas. Yep, yours is a 23 for sure. Interesting information.

                          Originally posted by streptile View Post
                          A preliminary search by me turned up a few on this forum, misidentified (often by me) as Meybauers.
                          I just noticed that the other one I linked to above was posted exactly a year ago today...
                          Best regards,
                          Streptile

                          Looking for ROUND BUTTON 1939 EK1 Spange cases (LDO or PKZ)

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Very interesting subject guys, even more interesting cause i just picked up a couple of EKs that could be easily likend to this thread.
                            I just did some pics to a nice EKI vaulted, unm with Meybauer core and so called early pin set up. Then a 23 marked EKII that has a nice Meybauer core.
                            What do you say, same frame too? I can tell the distance of the 10 o'clock inner corner from the swasi is quite evident on both crosses.
                            Here you have a comparison.
                            Cheers,
                            Stefano
                            Attached Files

                            Comment


                              #15
                              This thread is a fascinating study Many thanks for the education guys

                              Nick

                              Comment

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