Integrity

[Detlev Niemann]

To Whom it may concern.

Coming back from a 10 day holiday and flicking through the new articles I stumbled over the”Flaw traces again” comments.Started by someone who might have been well intended this thread turned into a kind of lemming vicious circle. The sensation of mentioning my name (and Kai Winklers) along with the in-between-the-line suggestions that I sell copys seem to attract more readers than other well informed threads.

I’m very disappointed to learn again that assumptions,self importance and half wits seem to rule the line a thread goes.
Even if I had not been on holiday I suppose that I would not have entered this scene before as arguing with biased persons is of no use and waste of time.

There is no need to go into details,because I doubt the knowledge of most of the collectors participating in this special thread,I doubt their intentions and I doubt their integrity !
There was no cross pictured,no KC or detail foto given and so many jumped on this train without knowing what they are talking about.A perfect sign of a lemming behaviour.

I have archived hundreds of KC’s which I had over the last years and you will find in cross check flawes turning up all the time and small technical mistakes by the dozens.

Up to this very moment there is no faked KC which makes it to 90% of a classic original cross.
Classic I call: Steinhauer & Lück,Junckers and Klein & Quenzers.

Also I doubt a lot can identify the maker of a KC with one quick glance.Not on a two dimensional picture which is difficult but when you have the cross in your hands.

The cross pictured by Jody Beltram a thread further is not a standard S&L,but a rarer variety of this KC by the same maker.See the lousy detailed swastika and dates,bubbled surface.Why everyone is falling over itself to love this cross is not my point.But someone must have mentioned that this cross looks different to all other S&L’s.

Even if the dies of S&L have been found and sold in the 80ties there is still a very long way from having them to produce a full KC. Again a nice “I have heard so it must be true” story.
A farytale might start this way.

I deal as a professional dealer for almost 20 years now and have concentrated on KC’s and bravery awards since than.Since 1995 every single item more expensive than 250 US comes automatically with a written expertise and garanty with fotos and measurements.Since than I’m still the ONLY dealer in the world who is doing this consequently.I give my personal word for all these items and everyone can come directly to me.
I have some simple and straight rules for my business:
1. I don’t sell fakes
2. I treat all customers the same
3. I sell on a strict first come first serve base
4. I try to help as much as I can

Are there exeptions ?
Yes,there are.
Who ever insults,attacks or bad mouthes me OR MY STAFF will be added to our privat “Black list” we have in our office.I will never ever sell or help this person again.Either being a dealer or a collector,this strain is dead.And this list is already very long.Few might know that I’m not on speaking terms with most of my collegues.I get between 120-150 e-mails and telefon calls a day.Lots of them are questions for help or for the actual market prices.If I could be a doctor and charge every telefon call I would stop to sell medals.Some collectors send me e-mails with 50 or more attached scans for a quick help.Or others (participants of this thread) asked me for some close up fotosd of very rare orders.Again all time consuming work for cost free.
Last time I have been to the US a close frind of mine told me that he attends a seminar on integrity.I thought it funny as integrity is fully self understood and obvious.
I have already lost 20 minutes to write this comment,so that’s it although I could get into many more details,but one feeling stays with me.

“I’m very disappointed,partly hurt and lost respect to several persons involved into this threadt.I should feel sorry for you,but all I feel is a nagging feeling of contempt”
detlev

[Ron Birch]

Hello Detlev,

I'm glad to see you respond in some sort of way but I believe most people who were reading the thread were more interested in the medal and not the dealer. I would like to see you post your opinions on the medal and to give your insight and thoughts on the subject in the thread. Most of the members (including myself) really have no idea about these except what we read and your input is just that much more information we can chew on sort of speaking.


I have started a couple of threads before about questionable badges that were being discussed. I also asked the dealer of the badge to join in and give his opinion why he thought the badge was good. This forum I thought was to hear opinions and learn from more experienced collectors and dealers, but response from the dealers have been rather thin to my disapointment.

[dm5000]

We love you man....

Whoa... Detlev,

I think you have got a case of the Monday-Morning-After-Vacation-Blues. 99% of everyone here has the utmost respect for your integrity and you are beyond a doubt the most popular dealer here. Sometimes it sounds like a cheerleading squad around on this forum. Some of the comments made in the previous thread were an uninformed sideways attack, and most of us dismissed it as such.

For myself, I understand how busy you are. Im an accountant and when I work 16 hours a day during tax season, I also get all kinds of calls all day long from people wanting my expertise for free. It is quite annoying, but a part of being in business. I try to keep my inquiries to you at an absolute minium and always in regards to acquiring some of your items. I hope others try to do would do the same.

The 3 little "complaints" we all have nothing to do with your integrity:

1. We want to know if Sabine does in fact look just like Supermodel Heidi Klum
2. Give us online package tracking numbers so that we can make sure our wives are NOT home the day our order arrives.
3. Have your website wizard update your site as things are sold. That way I can have the item I really want go "poof" and disappear from my screen instead of getting, "Sorry, Sold. Detlev." Seriously, though... Wouldnt that be a huge timesaver for you, instead of sending email rejections? Is in not technically possible?

Anyway, the short of it is.... Ignore the comments in the previous post, they do not represent the feelings of the majority of posters...
Regards,
Dave

[Dave Kane]

Post war or not?

With all due respect Detlev I think you have mis-read the commentary as nothing was directed toward you or your staff!
You can now clear-up this question of 'flawed' S&L crosses and I'm not talking about a tiny chink in a die or the odd piece of metal accidentally embossed on the frame or core....Is the S&L cross with the severe die flaw/crack on the 3oc arm pre 1945?
John

[PaulChep]

The only thing we have is our reputation

I understand were Detlev is coming from. As a dealer your most treasured asset is you reputation and the trust of your customers. Being in sales I know how long it takes to build a solid reputation as Detlev has. For anyone to question your reputation or integrity is threatening your livelyhood and I would take it personal also. I can state from personal experience that Detlev's knowledge and reputation are very well deserved. Detlev treats his customers not just as customers but as friends. He and his staff have gone out of there way to be helpful to me. In this business we all know that there are so many sharks and dirt bags. There are only a very few dealers world wide that I would work with and Detlev is one of them!

[Sebastian Bianchi]

Detlev Niemann has been a friend of this site and this forum since its inception. He not only sponsors the site in an official capacity but also provides support in ways that are above and beyond this commitment. You know from your purchase success rate that he hardly needs the advertisement, yet he supports the site and the hobby in ways that other dealers and auction houses would never dream of. If I sound like a cheerleading band it is because I personally hold deep respect for the man.

From time to time a comment that I disagree with, such as the innuendo made about Detlev on the thread in question, will graze the pages of the forum. When all is said and done the informed reader will reach their own conclusions regarding that suggestion.

I will comment on the RK thread, but I should preface it by stating that I don’t own a flawed RK nor do I personally know anyone who does or is selling one at this time.

Here is my opinion regarding the issue; I would personally not purchase one, not because I think that they are fake, but because there is a controversy surrounding them which I have not been able to sort out, and I would rather invest in an undisputed piece. If it were an EK 1, then sure, but I am just now working on my second Knights Cross and logic in my case dictates that I should get an unquestioned piece. Does this mean that I think they are fake, and I condemn those who sell them/own them? No! It simply means that I don’t know all the answers and I am reserving judgment at this time.

I give little credence to hypothetical arguments, hearsay, and folklore stories of back-alley conspiracies. Sure, I could conjure up stories to support both camps, but what weight do they hold? None! They can make for entertaining reading and I suppose they are part of the collecting scene and the atmosphere of this hobby, but these theories and stories should be kept in perspective not be relied upon to arrive at a definite verdict one way or the other. More importantly, they should not form a platform from which to launch negative suggestions on well establish members of our community.

More studying needs to be conducted, more pictures examined, we have to look for an undisputed pattern. Even then, very little can be proven (a shadow of doubt has been cast even on pieces in the hands of veterans) and very often we have to simply agree to disagree, and continue with our research. What's in your collection has to make only one person happy, what you have is your responsibility. If Detlev has the cross for sale it’s because he believes it to be original, as many other people in that camp do, not because he is peddling fakes ( those who have been around know he has pulled badges if it comes to his attention that they are fakes). His integrity is, in my opinion, <b>beyond question.</b>

Seba

[Gordon Williamson]

I really don't think any serious collector on this Forum harbours any doubts about Detlev Niemann's integrity.

My own feelings about these RK are clear, I don't like them. However, I do not consider that anyone has proven conclusively that they are all wrong. For sure many of them are and there is enough doubt in my own mind that I would certainly chose a non-flawed piece every time.

If however someone who firmly believes a flawed RK to be totally contemporary to the 1939-45 period sells it as genuine, and backs up his sale with a money back guarantee, I don't think anyone is in a position to criticise.

Those who do not believe the flawed RKs to be period may not like them but no one can come up with any proof that they are ALL postwar so their opinion is no more valid than those who like the flawed pieces. I second Seba's comments on this wholeheartedly.

Whilst the discussion of the pros and cons is an interesting and valid exercise, personal attacks and insults are not.

Let me say this one again, and make it perfectly clear, - discuss the item not personalities. Once again what might have been a useful and informative thread has been tarnished by insults.

If anyone posts threads which contain insults, snide remarks or "between the lines" hidden insults these WILL be removed.


Gordon

[dm5000]

Not to beat a dead horse, but....

John J., the problem was that it is hard to read Ludwig's opening thread and not take it personally:

Ludwig said:
"Detlev Niemann has sold KCs with flaw-traces and Kai Winkler has one now for sale (#6839).
So are they fooling us or do they not know what´s real and what´s not?"

You can only infer that he is saying that Detlev and Kai are crooks or idiots. I have no experience with Kai, but I have a very good relation ship with Detlev and I can tell you he is neither.

I think Seba and Gordon would agree that it would be ok to point out that Detlev and Kai sell this type of RK as originals and that the member would like to discuss the merits of the RK, but the personal attacks were not appropriate. I can only assume that Ludwig is new to the forum and doesnt have any experience with Detlev.

I understand that Detlev wanted to respond, but by the length and tone of his response, I think he underestimated how little the members paid attention to the insult. I know of no one who has done business with him and does not hold him in high regard. He is a friend to the forum and to collectors....

Dave

[Dave Kane]

Agreed!

I only hoped that by prodding the discussion "the dealers" would take part and answer this nagging topic! Not with the catch-all 'money back' thing but, with a yes and why!
We're still in limbo though..
John

[Eric Stahlhut]

Thanks for speaking out, Detlev!

You probably don't know me, but I have purchased a few items from you before-- and every time I did so I had a positive experience and I was entirely satisfied. I generally try to acquire items from private sources rather than from dealers. Buying from dealers in my opinion can be too easy!


I would like to commend you for a unique feature that you offer on your website: the 'known reproduction of the week'! Other dealers offer this service on occaision, but never as frequently as you do. That single action in itself speaks volumes as towards your integrity....

If there ever could possibly be such a thing as a 'collector's dealer', then you are definitely the blueprint.....

regards,
eric

[Prosper Keating]

Detlev,

I have just read the thread again and I do not think that anyone accused you or Kai Winkler of knowingly selling fake RKs. Here are two quotes from two of the postings I made during the discussion about Steinhauer & Lück RKs with flaws on the beading:

Let me hasten to qualify this by stating that I am not for one moment suggesting that the dealers in question are knowingly selling questionable RKs. I am merely observing that it would be very funny to find that they had acquired the crosses from people who were screaming blue murder at those of us who dared to cast doubt upon their originality a couple of years back.

I think the point or points have been clearly made. In defence of dealers, it must be said that no one man can be an expert in all things and some honest dealers occasionally get caught out, just like the rest of us, with fakes or questionable items in their inventories.

As you say, there are plenty of RKs with minor manufacturing flaws and faults but this is not the same thing as the beading flaws on a 1939 Steinhauer & Lück RK produced sometime in the 1980s on the damaged dies. Or even the 1939 and 1957 pattern S&L RKs produced in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. I know two 1939 pattern Steinhauer & Lück RKs with minor flaws to the beading. The flaws are hard to see without looking very closely and these two crosses are probably pre-May 1945 pieces.

One of the owners was thinking of returning this cross to the dealer from whom he bought it after reading the thread that has so upset you. I actually advised him not to judge his cross too harshly and to wait and see. I expect that you probably think that I am out to get all dealers or something, and I am probably on this blacklist of yours - I have certainly never been able to buy anything from you even though I have tried! - but remember me when this man does not send the Steinhauer & Lück RK with miniscule flaws back to you for a refund.

If I thought you were a crook, I would say so! I am quite wellknown for that sort of behaviour. I think you are perhaps being a bit too sensitive on this occasion. But then...it is never easy to come back from vacation. And it is true that for every good customer who walks though the door, there are a dozen scheißkopfen. So...shall we put this down to 'Monday Blues"?

Regards,

Prosper Keating

[Sebastian Bianchi]

This thread has run its course, Detlev’s integrity needs no further endorsement and I will not open this up for posts by those who do not have the sense to recognize that sometimes issues needs to be discussed via private e-mail.

Sebastian.