Spectroscopy: method of detecting modern EK paint?

[Bill M]

--We in the Imperial Section are looking into fake Imperial EKs and for scientific methods of authenticating. I have already seen a precious metals refiner and had computer assays done on a few Iron Crosses, but the results were ambiguous. I am currently investigating other methods to test the core paint, such as those used to authenticate works of art by spectroscopy. I don't know if anyone has tried this, but I've searched the forum and have found no signs of it. If a tester knew what to look for, it is possible that an EK from any period could be authenticated, no? This may be a simplistic view, but since I have no real idea of what I am doing - I may need some help. Any thoughts?

[George Stimson]

A simplistic view? Sometimes the simple things are the things that work.

Have you tried searching on the web for spectroscopic capabilities?

[Peter Wiking]

I dont know about that, but i´m thinking in ways of microscopes.
We should build up a library with KNOWN originals that has been inspected under a microscope. Just like a gun will leave a "fingerprint" on the shell/bullet, the dietools of WW1 and WW2 crosses will leave their personal marks. With this database and a microscope we should have a powerfull tool.

Eyes and nose is still very powerfull and maybee the best tool to use

Cheers.
Peter Wiking

[Brian S]

A spectograph would give a good fingerprint too. It would identify modern elements in paint unused in 1813 and 1870. Plus it would be interesting to get a few S&L RK fingerprints and see how they look. And, of course, THE ROUNDER!

[Bill M]

"Have you tried searching on the web for spectroscopic capabilities?"
-- I have and am in the process of tracking down a place to have it done by. I will go upstairs to find the links I have and post them here as I cannot quite explain the capabilities.
--I don't think a microscope will really help too much, even the electron types. Using the computer-based element monitor of my local precious metals assayer got me thinking that the only way to do this is on the elemental level. I looked into the spectroscope a few years ago when I was searching for an 1813 1st class. The forum was smaller back then and I think so was the web. I am ready to start again after a suggestion from Brian.

[Brian S]

What about a museum that also has a military bent?

West Point Academy Museum?

[George Stimson]

I've thought for a long time that the ultimate victory over fakes would be won by using a device that could determine precisely when a piece was made. Maybe (hopefully) the spectograph is that device!

[tom hansen]

I've thought for a long time that the ultimate victory over fakes would be won by using a device that could determine precisely when a piece was made. Maybe (hopefully) the spectograph is that device!

The best way to determine the chemical elements of a complex organic mixture is not via mass spectometry. Mass spec is helpful in determining side chains and elemental composition of a purified compound. Paint is a complex mixture of organic hydrocarbons with a variety of inorganic metals and salts. Analysis of this would require samples of the materials to be analyzed.
I would start by doing a basic search on the properties of paint in general from different time periods and get a basic feel for how they changed from period to period. For example, when was lead added to paint? What pigments were used for black pigment at different times? What were the main base solvents? After you know this basic information about the materials, you can begin to ask specific intelligent questions that one can analyze to determine a period piece. For example, if we knew that cadmium was a componant of white paint prior to 1950, but usually not after, what test would be best to determine the presence of cadmium?
Armed with this basic information, I would contact Dupont chemical and ask to speak to their ananlytical chemists. Tell them what your project is and that you are doing this as a scholarly pursuit to advance historical information regarding WWI awards.(It may be best to go through their PR department first). Or, as you are in New York, call the chemistry department at NYU and ask to speak to one of the chemistry professors in analytical chemistry. I am sure they would find your interest intriguing, but would need the help of basic information, which you will have. They, at the U or Dupont, will be able to advise as the best method of detection of the trace elements you are looking for. But, as I have said above, it will require a sample. There is not an "imaging" technique that will help you, in that surface metal contanimation will result in an inconclusive result with EM.
I have an undergrad degree in chemical engineering (thank God I never used it), so I am trying to recall basic stuff from 25 years ago. However, I did six months as a part of my degree in chemical isolation at Merck and used many of the analytical techniques to isolate complex organic compounds (antibiotics). It is not easy and often requires a large amount of substrate (your medals), which I am sure you will not want to give up. The knowledge that you will have to provide is the historical information about basic differences in the chemical composition of paint from different periods such that they can answer specifically what you need. Good luck- Hope that is a start.

[Brian S]

Raman spectroscopy was utilized to detect one of the 20th century's greatest fakes, the Vinland Map. Supposedly drawn around 1440 it showed Iceland, Greenland and the eastern part of North America. Or, the Vikings got here first...

When these guys started out all they knew was the paper was right, now what other compounds, elements were in the ink, under the ink. They didn't go into it with an idea of what they knew they were looking for, they went in blank, like us

The Raman test does NOT harm any material in the item being tested.

Well the paper carbon dated right to about 1440.

Paper blanks could be lifted from manuscripts so the map paper was correct.

"
By using Raman spectroscopy, the valuable document can be probed without the need to remove samples of material.

Features on the map consist of black ink and an underlying yellowish line. In their analysis, Clark and Brown found that yellow areas contained anatase - a form of titanium dioxide that is rarely of natural origin.

Anatase could not be synthesized until the 20th century, prompting them to conclude that; "The presence of a yellow line containing anatase, closely associated with a stable carbon ink, indicates that the Vinland Map is a modern forgery."

"Knowing that yellowing is a common feature of medieval manuscripts, a clever forger may seek to simulate this degradation by including a yellow line in his rendering of the map," they added.

"The Raman results provide the first definitive proof that the map itself was drawn after 1923," Clark said."

First step is to find a chemist who could even tell us if black paint over a period of 150 years should show different components. If so, all we need is a Raman microprobe from the UK company Renishaw and a chemist. Located here http://www.renishaw.com/client/produ...h/pgp-37.shtml

Maybe an easy experiment having the scientist tell us if he finds a difference between 1939 EKII's and 1870 EKII's. If so, we could move on the big stuff, RK's and 1813 EK's.

[Bill M]

Sorry for the bump but...bump