An interesting dilemma - at least for me!

[moranimal]

Reading the threads on the flawed S&Ls and the Deumer RKs got me to thinking about what is and is not a valid piece of Third Reich memorabilia? For instance, if a piece was assembled on May 8, 1945, instead of the 7th, would it be considered postwar? What about the 9th? 10th? What's more, how would we know? Did all of the companies producing awards shut down on the 7th or 8th of May, or did they continue to produce for as long as they were able, or until shut down by one of the allied occupation forces?

This is not a question to determine who is right or who is wrong, but to determine the parameters of the hobby. From a zero tolerance point of view, I guess we have to say that anything after May 7th/8th is postwar. But if assembly/production continued for a few more months or even until the end of the year with virtually the same personnel, how can we distinquish? Certainly as time went by after the war and conditions changed, we are now able to more clearly identify reproductions.

But suppose you had an RK that was completed on June 22nd, 1945, all components from original stock produced during and/or just after the war, and by the same personnel who had been working during the war. Is it, or is it not a "true" RK, or any other piece of memorabilia for that matter?

I don't know the answer, but just asking for opinions as I'm curious to what everyone thinks.

[Rick Research]

I doubt anybody went on with "business as usual" from the moment Allied troops appeared down the far end of the street! Also, remember, by the literal last day of the war, not much of unoccupied Germany was left-- most of the centers for making badges had already been overrun.

The only personal case I can cite is the Ukrainian mother of a woman I worked with--she was a worker in a place that made uniform insignia: embroidered naval ratings, etc, in Bavaria.

They were abandoned by the German bosses the instant Sherman tank rumbles were heard down the road. The workers never saw them again.

LATER that summer, for lack of anything better to do, and with nothing else at hand, they began sewing Gefreiter chevrons etc all together to make table cloths, endless lengths of KVK ribbons sewn end to end to make couch covers, and that sort of thing--and still had one when I knew them.

After Winter of Year Zero, with occupation troops in place, no doubt a souvenir business resumed, but to suggest that workers were punching in to make IABs in June '45... uh uh.

Personally, anything "unissued"--period or not, is of far less interest than anything actually WORN. I have a mint cased unissued EK1 from a Viennese maker, paid $7.50 for it in 1969. Must have been crate loads lying around to be traded for chocolate and cigarettes. But I always much preferred the April '45 (hand vaulted, too!) EK1 that I got from the recipient, a Flak Oberleutnant dR.

[Greg S]

The medals would have been indistinguishable if made in June or in May from the actual wartime medals. The same dies pin catch etc, etc, if made with the left over pieces would be the same, until they ran out of surplus. We may have in our collection one or more of these pieces and for all intents and purposes can not be distinguished between their wartime counterpart. Its when they ran out of the surplus we find the postwar medals don't match their wartime counterpart or those we know did not go into production, but were authorized.

IMHO

[moranimal]

Not exactly

Rick,

You make good points, but the problem is, from what I've seen in previous thread all over the forum, that a number of dies, parts, frames, machinery, etc. survived the Third Reich, and seemingly well past ten or twenty years later. These companies and individuals needed money to survive until such time as they could be rebuilt and obtain contracts for producting who knows what at some later date. I'm not suggesting that it would be on the same scale as during the war, but certainly, the capacity to create such memorabilia did exist in some limited form. The question is then to define what is proper Third Reich memorabilia, and by what criteria?

Greg,

I believe you are correct. But suppose you had 90% of the original components just for arguments sake, and then had to create the additional 10% - whatever that might be - in order to create the memorabilia. Would it be considered an original, or a repro? Is it only when some or all of the original dies, casting, etc. are no longer available that it becomes a reproduction? If so, then the S&L dies, cracked or not, if original would be constituting an "original" by that definition - which I don't think any of us would believe is correct.

We then get back to definining what is original, and what is a reproduction. The answer is probably the same as the S&L debate, i.e. if you think it's real, then it's real to you. If not ...

[Angel Farré]

This questions are very interesting, not only for medals and cloth, what about papers, I have a Black Wound Badge citation dated May 29th, 1.945 for a wound suffered on April 18th? also several Soldbuch and Wehrpass with notations of awards on July 1.945 and payments up to 1.947, are this postwar altered items?. Surely medals, badges, daggers and everything the victors want to trade were manufactured after May 8th, but I tend to take them as original pieces as being produced equal to all pre May 8th ones, copies and fakes are does made to fool the collector, not to survive after the war, surely other things were made and sold from original WWII stocks and/or dies and are not fakes.

Cheers

Angel

[Dave Kane]

But who will pay me?

Purely from a business view of it I suspect that the shop was shut and workers sent on their way...Afterall who was going to pay for the items produced. The Govt. was gone along with the army, navy etc. etc.

It's common knowledge that NO ONE was a NAZI once the allies rolled in so, I can't see a businessman taking a major chance in producing enough medal to make a profit.

Now, when things settled in and began to normalize YES, I can see the odd badge/medal being made by the worker who arrived early or stayed late. This was certainly not a post-war "production line".

Then years and year later when the allies were not as feared and people weren't "turning-in" the suspected Nazi...Then I could see a "back door" production run. The problem by then however would have been material and trained labor..thus the great fall in visual quality and finish!

Just thoughts!
John J.

[Mark S.]

Not all stuff was reassembled and sold.

Atwood paid a visit to the Eickhorn plant in the 60's and recovered boxloads of Third Reich dagger parts in the basement of the factory.

Something ele to consider is that when the production stopped, there were bound to be peices in various states of completion. I am sure the workers werent saying "Hold on, I am almost done here..." This might very well explain the KM badges that dont have any gilding on the wreaths. Perhaps also the bronze colored GAB's we have discussed recently.