CollectorsGuild

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

PKZ Numbering Timeline

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    PKZ Numbering Timeline

    Over the past couple of weeks I've been revisiting some of my old archive material...and have been thinking about the introduction of the PKZ numbering on awards, and the date when this started.

    I know Dietrich's opinion, based on Hartman's awards, is that it occured in the early part of 1944, and in fact states that Hartman's Oakleaves are the earliest proven example of a 900 21 being awarded (page 255).

    However, this overlooks Rudels Sword's (these were 900/21 Godets) dated 25 Nov 1943 and also Nowotny's Oakleaves and Swords which were presented to him personally by Hilter on 22nd September 1943....both 900/21 pieces. Rudel's were still in his possession when examined by V E Bowen and Nowotny's were in the possession of his brother who photgraphed and described them for V E B. I've no reason to doubt the accuracy of the material...looking at photo's of Rudel's Swords they are clearly Godet second type.

    Bearing in mind that the time from fabrication to reaching the PKZ would probably be no less than a month (maybe more ?), and assuming that the new batch were used immediatley it would put the start date latest at July or August 1943.

    Revisiting Dietrich's book, the various documentation from regarding the PKZ and LDO numbering is confusing (confused ?) and contradictory...for me anyway.

    Looking at my old notes I see that my view years ago was that for RK's the numbering was applied maybe as early as mid 1943, and certainly by no later than August 1943. It might well have been earlier.

    Regarding RK's...I accept that their dstributioin was tightly controlled, at least until the later part of 1944 onwards. However, I wonder what system was in place for deciding which of the licenced suppliers got the order for the next batch ?.....These suppliers would surely have a stockpile so that they could be able to react quickly to an order (they wouldnt be made to order surely !). PKZ numbered RK might therefore date from at least mid 1943..including the famous K&Q flawed variety ?




    Chris

    (looking for early K & Q RK)

    #2
    13 views and no comment ?....

    Chris

    ____________

    (Always Looking for early Juncker RK's)



    Chris

    (looking for early K & Q RK)

    Comment


      #3
      Chris

      Is it known when Godet produced their special presentation sets of EK1, EK 2, and RK? I ask because I saw one recently wherein the EK 1 was PKZ-marked "21". Were these sets made late into the war?
      George

      Comment


        #4
        Also, I have an EK 2 marked "137" that came with an Urkunde dated January, 1941. (Of course, there's no way to know for sure that that cross actually goes with that doc....)
        George

        Comment


          #5
          Pkz godet

          Originally posted by George Stimson View Post
          Is it known when Godet produced their special presentation sets of EK1, EK 2, and RK? I ask because I saw one recently wherein the EK 1 was PKZ-marked "21". Were these sets made late into the war?

          George;

          On the Godet EK1 mm21 that was part of the presentation set mentioned, was the Ek1's pin of the special "fluted" design? The only Godet's that I have seen with this fluted design seem to have been part of the special set.

          Thanks

          Comment


            #6
            I'm not sure what you mean by "fluted", but if you mean like the type pin found on U-Boat clasps, then I'd say not. But it also did not have what is considered the standard Godet/Zimmermann pin.
            George

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Chris Jenkins View Post
              Over the past couple of weeks I've been revisiting some of my old archive material...and have been thinking about the introduction of the PKZ numbering on awards, and the date when this started.

              I know Dietrich's opinion, based on Hartman's awards, is that it occured in the early part of 1944, and in fact states that Hartman's Oakleaves are the earliest proven example of a 900 21 being awarded (page 255).

              However, this overlooks Rudels Sword's (these were 900/21 Godets) dated 25 Nov 1943 and also Nowotny's Oakleaves and Swords which were presented to him personally by Hilter on 22nd September 1943....both 900/21 pieces. Rudel's were still in his possession when examined by V E Bowen and Nowotny's were in the possession of his brother who photgraphed and described them for V E B. I've no reason to doubt the accuracy of the material...looking at photo's of Rudel's Swords they are clearly Godet second type.

              Bearing in mind that the time from fabrication to reaching the PKZ would probably be no less than a month (maybe more ?), and assuming that the new batch were used immediatley it would put the start date latest at July or August 1943.

              Revisiting Dietrich's book, the various documentation from regarding the PKZ and LDO numbering is confusing (confused ?) and contradictory...for me anyway.

              Looking at my old notes I see that my view years ago was that for RK's the numbering was applied maybe as early as mid 1943, and certainly by no later than August 1943. It might well have been earlier.

              Regarding RK's...I accept that their dstributioin was tightly controlled, at least until the later part of 1944 onwards. However, I wonder what system was in place for deciding which of the licenced suppliers got the order for the next batch ?.....These suppliers would surely have a stockpile so that they could be able to react quickly to an order (they wouldnt be made to order surely !). PKZ numbered RK might therefore date from at least mid 1943..including the famous K&Q flawed variety ?

              I agree Chris. I tried in the past to bring up this PKZ timeline with no action. Anyway, I have a solid provenance doc and award group directly from the german vets daughter in which he was given a 65 marked ost medal on july of 1942 according to the doc.
              best wishes,
              jeff
              Looking for a 30 '06 Chauchat magazine.

              Comment


                #8
                Hi Chris,

                it is very clear that all the remarks regarding the PKZ numbers in my first book are only made in relation to the Knights Cross and higher and only based on the data available to me at that time. The time gap between the appearance of PKZ marked crosses in groups and the possible introduction date results in the fact that the PKZ had a lot of crosses on stock due to the recall and that is why there are so many L/12 examples awarded.

                I apologize if the material I was putting together as a first time written record about the numbering systems in general was confusing to you. However, I don't think I personally was confused, just open and not under the pressure of having an answer for everything like so many have.

                In the German Cross book it is clearly stated that the PKZ numbering system existed earlier than one would deduct from the timeline one can construct from the Knights Crosses and higher. The data from the German Cross point to a date in late 1942/early 1943.
                It will be interesting to see what the research into other medals will show, just as Jeff rightly pointed out above. The logic would tell us that it started some not too short time after the introduction of the LDO-Numbers.

                Regarding the "famous" flawed K&Q (which was only made famous by one German dealer for reasons we don't need to discuss here ... anymore ...): I trust the statistical data. If all the crosses from all kind of groups and collectors worldwide show L/12 in a certain time period and there is one group with a "flawed" 65 during the same time ... well, I would think it is one of the "famous" 'added' examples.

                I certainly don't know when the "65" was introduced, statistically the RK appears in great numbers from mid 44 on. That does not mean that K&Q got a the "65" assigned in mid 44 or some short time before. It only means that for the Knights Cross with a 65 marked loop the date is around mid 44. This might and is for sure different of the EK1 and for the Wound badge.

                The birth of the PKZ numbering system cannot in any way, shape or form deducted form one medal alone. I never thought so and apologize that I did not make that clearer in the Knights Cross book. For me it was always clear.

                We have to look at ALL medals. And we have to be VERY, VERY careful with some groups and provenance. I know of quite some cases where people think they have a high medal attributed to a famous person ... but it is not the case.... One should not just grab some data and build a system on it. The data must either be dead solid or verified by other supporting data.

                Ailsby once told me on the phone that the PKZ numbers were introduced 1936 since he had a Eagle Order of a certain early type marked as such. There are so-called 'advanced' collectors who insist in the start date of the PKZ system in September of 1939.... Maybe. But without proof very hard to believe. And the proof should not be (as an example) because the person has a "65" marked RK attributed to one of the first awardees. Because he was told so or even has a COA for that!

                And that is how I think about that issue. Confusing, isn't it?

                Dietrich
                B&D PUBLISHING
                Premium Books from Collectors for Collectors

                Comment


                  #9
                  I have a DKiG that should be awarded the 10th of November 1942, and that is marked with "1".

                  Rank: Oberleutnant
                  Unit: 1.(F)/Nacht-Aufklärungsstaffel
                  Received on: 10 November 1942

                  Name: Wiese, Erich

                  The cross can be seen in this thread:
                  http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=184183

                  /Flemming
                  <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2>Rank: </TD><TD>Oberleutnant </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top colSpan=2>Unit: </TD><TD>1.(F)/Nacht-Aufklärungsstaffel </TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>Received on: </TD><TD>10 November 1942 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Hi D...thanks for the post...my replies below (in red)

                    Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post
                    Hi Chris,

                    it is very clear that all the remarks regarding the PKZ numbers in my first book are only made in relation to the Knights Cross and higher and only based on the data available to me at that time. The time gap between the appearance of PKZ marked crosses in groups and the possible introduction date results in the fact that the PKZ had a lot of crosses on stock due to the recall and that is why there are so many L/12 examples awarded.

                    Yep...agreed. But the Sword and Oakleaves and then the Swords as mentioned in post 1 are "higher" and clearly were second half 1943.

                    I apologize if the material I was putting together as a first time written record about the numbering systems in general was confusing to you. However, I don't think I personally was confused, just open and not under the pressure of having an answer for everything like so many have.

                    My riotus early life and encroaching old age are probably the cause for my confusion. but my comments were directed to the data, and not to your interpretation of it. We have various snap shots that leave many tantilising questions unanswered !

                    In the German Cross book it is clearly stated that the PKZ numbering system existed earlier than one would deduct from the timeline one can construct from the Knights Crosses and higher. The data from the German Cross point to a date in late 1942/early 1943.
                    It will be interesting to see what the research into other medals will show, just as Jeff rightly pointed out above. The logic would tell us that it started some not too short time after the introduction of the LDO-Numbers.


                    Personally, I can see no logical reason why the RK PKZ numbering should have begun later.



                    Regarding the "famous" flawed K&Q (which was only made famous by one German dealer for reasons we don't need to discuss here ... anymore ...): I trust the statistical data. If all the crosses from all kind of groups and collectors worldwide show L/12 in a certain time period and there is one group with a "flawed" 65 during the same time ... well, I would think it is one of the "famous" 'added' examples.

                    MMMmm....that's not totally convincing. Of course lots of dubious practices have taken place...and collectors are some of the worst offenders I fear. But we musn't throw the baby out with the bathwater and discount earlier K&Q attributations as part of the statistics..

                    I certainly don't know when the "65" was introduced, statistically the RK appears in great numbers from mid 44 on. That does not mean that K&Q got a the "65" assigned in mid 44 or some short time before. It only means that for the Knights Cross with a 65 marked loop the date is around mid 44. This might and is for sure different of the EK1 and for the Wound badge.


                    The birth of the PKZ numbering system cannot in any way, shape or form deducted form one medal alone. I never thought so and apologize that I did not make that clearer in the Knights Cross book. For me it was always clear.



                    We have to look at ALL medals. And we have to be VERY, VERY careful with some groups and provenance. I know of quite some cases where people think they have a high medal attributed to a famous person ... but it is not the case.... One should not just grab some data and build a system on it. The data must either be dead solid or verified by other supporting data.

                    Oh yes.

                    Ailsby once told me on the phone that the PKZ numbers were introduced 1936 since he had a Eagle Order of a certain early type marked as such. There are so-called 'advanced' collectors who insist in the start date of the PKZ system in September of 1939.... Maybe. But without proof very hard to believe. And the proof should not be (as an example) because the person has a "65" marked RK attributed to one of the first awardees. Because he was told so or even has a COA for that!


                    And that is how I think about that issue. Confusing, isn't it?

                    ..and truely fascinating !


                    Dietrich



                    Chris

                    (looking for early K & Q RK)

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by George Stimson View Post
                      Is it known when Godet produced their special presentation sets of EK1, EK 2, and RK? I ask because I saw one recently wherein the EK 1 was PKZ-marked "21". Were these sets made late into the war?

                      Hi George, it has always been my view that these sets were early war, based n the fact that Godet's RK's are very scarce and seem to date from the very early period. Nothing very scientific I admit. Maybe the EK1 replaced a missing item ?
                      Last edited by Chris Jenkins; 04-10-2010, 10:29 PM.



                      Chris

                      (looking for early K & Q RK)

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Jeff V View Post
                        I agree Chris. I tried in the past to bring up this PKZ timeline with no action. Anyway, I have a solid provenance doc and award group directly from the german vets daughter in which he was given a 65 marked ost medal on july of 1942 according to the doc.
                        best wishes,
                        jeff
                        Interesting, Jeff !

                        Yours too Flemming.



                        Chris

                        (looking for early K & Q RK)

                        Comment


                          #13
                          MMMmm....that's not totally convincing. Of course lots of dubious practices have taken place...and collectors are some of the worst offenders I fear. But we musn't throw the baby out with the bathwater and discount earlier K&Q attributations as part of the statistics....
                          I am not discounting early K&Q attributations at all. As you know, I even show a very early one in my book (von Ravenstein). But that one has no flaws and no "65" marked loop. (which would put it with your reasoning before the PKZ numbers and therefore possibly even before March 1941). I was talking about the brand new, unworn, 65-lopped K&Q with flaws that pooped up all over the time table ...

                          Klein & Quenzer RKs are legitimate and have been awarded - there is not doubt in my mind. But not always at the dates it is claimed ....
                          B&D PUBLISHING
                          Premium Books from Collectors for Collectors

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post
                            I am not discounting early K&Q attributations at all. As you know, I even show a very early one in my book (von Ravenstein). But that one has no flaws and no "65" marked loop. (which would put it with your reasoning before the PKZ numbers and therefore possibly even before March 1941). I was talking about the brand new, unworn, 65-lopped K&Q with flaws that pooped up all over the time table ...

                            Klein & Quenzer RKs are legitimate and have been awarded - there is not doubt in my mind. But not always at the dates it is claimed ....
                            I never doubted it Dietrich...I was referring to the attributed 800/65 looped variety....and I never mentioned dates before PKZ numberings (did I ?).

                            In the early 1980's (as far as my memory serves) there were repeated rumours in the circle that a hord of K@Q RK's had been found...all cased and with exterior packaging.... maybe a possible source of the exapmples we have seen. But who knows, the internet has transformed the access to and awareness of the market for these items.

                            But....to get back to the point.....do you concede that PKZ numbering was used on RK's and above prior to January 1944 ?...surely you can accept that ?
                            Last edited by Chris Jenkins; 04-11-2010, 01:13 AM.



                            Chris

                            (looking for early K & Q RK)

                            Comment


                              #15
                              21

                              Originally posted by Chris Jenkins View Post
                              Hi George, it has always been my view that these sets were early war, based n the fact that Godet's RK's are very scarce and seem to date from the very early period. Nothing very scientific I admit. Maybe the EK1 replaced a missing item ?
                              Hi Chris,

                              Back in the mid-80's I had the opportunity to examine one of these very rare sets that came fresh out of the woodwork from a Vet in Nebraska.
                              Quality of the entire set was outstanding w/ the even the RK band tailored.
                              The RK was unmarked and the loop only marked w/ 21. The EK1 presented 21 on the pin and the EK2 marked 21 on the ring.

                              E.

                              Comment

                              Users Viewing this Thread

                              Collapse

                              There is currently 1 user online. 0 members and 1 guests.

                              Most users ever online was 10,032 at 08:13 PM on 09-28-2024.

                              Working...
                              X