The perfect fake?

[François SAEZ]

Again, why bother to make good fakes when most of the collectors knows close to zero and STILL buy
One of the member of this forum, send me pics of a LW helmet in plastic "for special training" - he paid $ 800 for it.
Another one asked me for the different colors piping on LW Officer visor caps
.../... the list is long AND I don't find it funny
This is why I ask why bother making good fakes?

François

[McCulloh]

Yuri:
Hi:
You may remember that earlier I had posted a brief note regarding a brief electron analysis of some badges (wound badges, black) at MIT as a lark., Subsequently, I have met and contacted some high end Numanists who are scientists in Massachusetts and Rhode Island.
They use the full gamet of electron microcrsopy, weights, mass displacement and chemical analysis on earlier Greek and lately, American coins. Due to oxydation and uniform carbon/acid/CO2 degradation and "porosity" (to quote Dr. Jansen),one can actually get an analysis of an item that says "yes, original to 1848" on a coin. Then, taking high definition photos and using the print outs, they can "mark" a coin with almost unshakable provenance (and by filing a UCC).
10 years ago when everybody though L12 RKs were real and an EK1 only sold for $60, it didn't make sense. Nowadays, with the growth of the hobby via the internet, some of this high-end stuff can and should be tagged in this manner.
Lastly, sorry I never responded to your questions. The reason is that I'm writing an article for the OMSa Journal on this. I hope to have my wound badge anaysis comleted for @25 manufacturers along with fakes, by next February.
Cheers,
JeMc
p,s, a commercial analysis of a badge/medal is $16. However, thats' useless at the moment because there's no standard by which to compare it, not yet anyway. Stay tuned.

[W. C. Stump]

WHY BOTHER?

"Again, why bother to make good fakes when most of the collectors knows close to zero and STILL buy?"

Only the ignorant and beginners fall victim to the charlatan's with greed in their eye, a flamboyant fabricated story to tell, and larceny in their hearts. So many beginner rely on the many quick sell outlets such as ebay, epier, and web sites of professionals who have been committing out and out fraud and deception for years and have never been brought to the bar of justice. Fortunately many experienced collectors will always provide advisee at any time to help any serious collector. Sometime they ask ridiculous question (from my standpoint), but really want assistance. I always try to help and advise them to acquire good reference book before they step out and get burned. Alas, most have already felt the sting of the fake mongers and some just quit in disgust. I think that it is our responsibility as collectors and researcher, both professional and amateur, to leave a legacy for the next generation and assist any way we can while we can. To poke fun at them is not the answer. We are all not blessed with the all knowing mind as some seem to think they possess here and on other forums. So I bother and think everyone who values the longivity of our hobby should also bother.

[Dave Kane]

Mr. Stump, I feel that you and Francios are bumping heads far too much lately! In this battle I must side with him. There are 1000% more Iron Cross' on the market today than could have possibly been made in the period! I understand your drive and compliment you but, isn't it your (peers) whom accepted the nonsense of stories, and "varients" and all sorts of published information to sell crap. If a badge appeared in print it was REAL and if a cap or helmet apppeared in a book it was REAL...it's a new generation of "show me" collectors who are directing this hobby NOT the Lt. Col. publishers...

[W. C. Stump]

BUMP HEADS?

Originally posted by John J.
Mr. Stump, I feel that you and Francios are bumping heads far too much lately! In this battle I must side with him. There are 1000% more Iron Cross' on the market today than could have possibly been made in the period! I understand your drive and compliment you but, isn't it your (peers) whom accepted the nonsense of stories, and "varients" and all sorts of published information to sell crap. If a badge appeared in print it was REAL and if a cap or helmet apppeared in a book it was REAL...it's a new generation of "show me" collectors who are directing this hobby NOT the Lt. Col. publishers...

Johnny Boy I have not been "bumping heads" with any one yet, but you are getting very close to my old noggin". I really don't know what you are referring to when you say "isn't it your (peers) whom accepted the nonsense of stories, and "varients" and all sorts of published information to sell crap." Please enlighten me. If you weren't so wet behind the ears you would know that I have led the crusade of "show me" advocates for years. Also, I would like to know your credentials that gives you a "directorship" of leadership of this hobby or any hobby. As experienced collectors it's up to us to share the knowledge when at all possible. What have you shared?

[Ron Birch]

Actually John they are both correct in their thinking. Francois point as always...know what you buy, get all the information you can and learn what it is you want to buy. And apparently the people wanting Francois opinion didn't bother. The information was out there with a little effort they could have found out for themselves. Bill's point is if someone needs your help or would like your opinion, by all means help. So I don't see anything wrong in either statement.


As far as books go, I believe even the latest ones had mistakes in them. That is one reason I suggested at one time to have a section on books to list the mistakes to help correct books we all have at home. By the way Bill, I had no idea you wrote a book.

[W. C. Stump]

AMATEUR AUTHOR

Ron I was in the process of writing a book on the Orders and Medals of the Third Reich and had a rough manuscript near completion, had all my collection photographed and in the early 75 I had to make a choice to continue collecting or buy a home and devote more time to my family. I sold my original collection and allowed John R. Angolia to use my entire research collection and assisted him with his two volume reference books, FOR FUHRER AND FATHERLAND. I always refer to my planned book as the "book that never was". I have studied and researched constantly for now on 50 years, learning every day, and tried to assist my fellow collector as best I can along the way. I have contributed to other reference works, written articles for the Ohio Valley Military Society and on this and other forums for many years. I always profess that I do not know everything and accept my mistakes with an open mind. I have been the thorn in the sides of fake monger for years and will continue to expose them at ever opportunity. My efforts, along with my sometimes bad temper, have cause me to be attacked by the certain individuals. But I love the hobby, enjoy collecting and research and will always call it like it is.

[Ludwig]

Perfect fakes/rgordon

Dear rgordon,
You mention perfect fakes of S&L Kcs and L/50 Oakleaves. Are they really PERFECT? I mean, then you can´t buy a L/50 Oakleaves except from the original holder? Same goes for the KCs, of course?
There must be SOME difference!?!

[Rich G]

Lugwig

apparently there is no difference. Made form the original tools using the same methods and materials would make them indistinguishable from those may pre-may 1945. The only difference possible is ageing, but if they were made shortly after 1945 the patina is going to be similar anyway.
But don't take my word for it, there are more learned persons on this forum who specialise in the Knight's Cross family, one of whom is Gordon Williamson.

Gordon, am I correct about these pieces or have I misunderstood previous posts regarding them being produced after the war?

Regards

Richard

[Ludwig]

Perfect fakes

Many thanks for your answer Richard. Sounds we have some sort of Moment 22 situation here.

[Gordon Williamson]

The Godet Oaks and Oaks/Swords produced in the 60s/70s and made on the original tooling will, because of that fact, of course have identical die characteristics to the originals. I have examined a couple of sets (unfortunately at a Fair where I didn't have my camera) and they were perfect, complete with frosted finish etc . The difficulty is that those pieces made in the 60s/70s will now have 30 or 40 years worth of natural Patina and wear.

They are effectively, the perfect fake, because no one will ever be able to prove they are wrong.

The same applies to the postwar restrikes of the L/12 Grand Cross. Made on the original tools (only some, not all of Junckers tools were destroyed in the bombing raid). The 1960s pieces are identical to the 1939 pieces. Ever wondered who so many of an award where only one was ever bestowed show up ?

Gordon

[Dave Kane]

A compliment!!

Darn Bill read the bloody post!! And, take your finger off of that "hair trigger". I said your peers NOT you; I meant your contemporaries, generation etc. allowed and accepted the sayings of the self-proclaimed experts and particularly so if they had anything to do with a book.
In contrast to "today's" collectors these things are not taken merely at face value but compared, studied and ever further questioned. As to the 'battle' comment it seems to just go hand in hand with your (written) demeanor and nothing again meant by it!
Johnny Boy

[W. C. Stump]

A COMPLIMENT QUICK ON THE TRIGGER

Sorry Johnny old chap, when you are nearly blind, senility setting in, and having been reared in a coal mining camp, I do well to read much less see. It is not the hungriest dog to get the bone, it is the quickest. I was not only born "A hair trigger", but was called "Johnny on the Spot" at times. I am sorry that I took your "compliment" wrong.

[Ron Birch]

The post patrol deems this thread safe again....

[W. C. Stump]

I HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR THEM.

Hey, it is cuz Moe Simian and Curley Simian. Larry Simian has looking and worring to death.