The perfect fake?

[Dez H]

Dear Collectors

I would like to pose a question that has given me much thought and consideration over the last few weeks, does anyone believe that one day we will see the perfect fake? Totally undistinguishable from an original pre May 1945 item. The German Cross or the Knight’s Cross, Iron Cross etc. Even small ticket items, like War Merit Crosses etc. Is it possible for someone to totally duplicate the entire die and age characteristics of a 60-year-old item? First of all I think we should clearly define what a reproduction is. In my totally unprofessional opinion I consider anything that was produced or assembled after May 1945 to be a reproduction. I don’t care if it was pieced together from scraps lying around the floors of the Junker factory. Original is original and there can be no in-betweens can there? I would love to here comments and thoughts from other collectors.



Dez

[Allan P.]

I am just waiting for the day, unfortunately.

With all the advances in technology, and the increase in value of certain awards, the 'crooks' will no doubt think it worth while in investing in the technology to create the perfect fake.

Sad day.

Allan

[Prosper Keating]

Why should they bother? Judging by the steady flow of people wasting bandwidth on discussions and hard luck stories about getting ripped off or seeing people ripped off over fake 3rd Reich material, the fakers and their accomplices appear to be able to sell less-than-perfect fakes with considerable ease. If you can sell sh1te, why offer quality? Basic business rule.

Prosper Keating

[George Stimson]

I think that fakes are going to get better and better, but I also think that someone is going to come up with a way to determine the actual age of an item -- kind of like carbon dating -- that will trump any improvements made in repros.

George

[Bill M]

--See the "CEJ 800" thread, does that qualify?

[Larry Lipps]

A perfect fake isn't necesary. All that's required is to be able to make someone believe that whatever you have is the accepted textbook standard. Where are all of the period photos of Retired Pilot's Badges being worn?

[François SAEZ]

EXACT Snigley

Additional point is why bother making copies when most of people buying know nothing - they don't know fakes as they don't know originals.

ZERO Tolerance, know what you buy or be ready to cry - one thing to remember: fakes (whatever quality) are here ONLY because people are buying them, why people buy them, simple: they don't know what they buy -WE ALL had the experience

When you have a good item in your hands, believe me, in general you know it -

The day "THEY" will reach the perfect fake, I guess we won't know
How many of us are able to recognize a fake from an original?
Let take the German Cross example:
If I put 3 originals and 1 fake (good quality) - how many collectors are able to tell where is the fake?
Again, there is something important : you never know everything, so try to specialize in one field - you will not know everything, but at least, you will make less mistakes.

The only weapon we (the collectors) have is EDUCATION - don't expect to fight fakes if you know nothing. Don't take the reputation, the story, the "lifetime garanty"..... - don't be assisted - buy only because you know (or think you know).

Some words to say it is good to criticize fakes but look around the average level of knowledge - you will understand why fakes (not especially good ones) are not ready to disappear.

Also,

François

[WAR LORD]

The perfect copy exists. But why dose nobody see it? The perfect murder has been comited. But why dose nobody see it?

IT IS PERFECT. We are all looking, but since the Romans and even before things have been faked. Some times these copies are more valuble than the original. Some copys have a value in their own right. The Souval Order of the Dead changes hands at a very high figure. Just know your subject, do not listen to people who think. See the real material and gather experience. In numismatics study coins and other struck art. These are the guid lines to the collecting of badges. See good Greek coins see the method of construction.

[François SAEZ]

FAKES are also around because they are shown as original in some "reference books" - and that doesn't help

François

[resaw]

Education is one of the keys, but knowledgeable people who are willing and able to help is another key. In the past week, Andy Hopkins and George Stimson steered me away from a fake RK that looked quite real to me (with the limited knowledge that I have). As François pointed out, there are some reference books that can be misleading, so having people like the gentlemen I mentioned is the trump card.

[Yuri D.]

They will never be able to make a perfect fake. There will be more and more work to tell the difference, but as there is no perfect fake Picasso or Rembandt (at $30,000,000 it's worh the effort to produce a perfect fake) there will never be a perfect fake Third Reich Item. The air was different then, people were different then, materials were different and so was the zeitgeist also different. Manufacturing techniquies were also different. Perfect reproductions will not happen in our lifetimes.

Yuri

[George Stimson]

Hey resaw,

I was very glad to be able to help you out!
I only wish that this forum had been around several years ago when I ate one of those %#&*!@# phony RKs!

George

[W. C. Stump]

A PERFEDT FAKE IS NOT NECESSARY

As long as the world has great illusionists and even greater con-men the old saying that a sucker is born every minute keeps the fake mongers in high cotton. The "Fuhrer of Fantasy Land" and his underlings will continue to haunt collectors from bubble gum cards to ancient antiquities.

[Dez H]

Thank you gentlemen for your insight and comments. I believe only though education and continual study can we ever stay one step in the lead. However, what about the possibilities of original award dies and moulds surviving the war and shamelessly falling into the faker’s hands? How easily detectable are these from the original war issue pieces? I assume many of the lesser awards were simply stamped from sheet metals or just simply moulds having the molten metals poured into them, surely these would be impossible to tell from modern produced awards using the original dies and moulds? Your thoughts?


Dez

[Rich G]

Having read all these posts, I tried to come up with the perfect fake... and bingo I can name 2...


The L/50 Oakleaves to the RK, and...
The S&L RK

Both these were produced after the war on the original dies using the exact same materials and processes.

So there you go! It's already happened, and that was probably in the 1950's !! Who needs modern technology?

Rich