Knight's Cross (value)?

[Dave Kane]

I think it is endless....Selfserving sure! But, what do you think?

Consider the amount of fakes, repos or what you call them; there really is a limited number of these available!

Is $12,500.00 unreasonable for an unquestionable (real,period) Knights Cross?

Dave

[George Stimson]

Is the awardee known? Does it have any provenance?

[Dave Kane]

No George...just a nice clean unquestionable Cross!

Dave

[George Stimson]

Then IMO, it's unreasonable.

[tom hansen]

Then IMO, it's unreasonable.

Then what would a reasonable price be for a nice condition with ribbon, uncased

1. Junckers L/12
2. K&Q
3. S&L 800 (no die flaws)
4. S&L 935
5. Junckers lazy 2
6. Zimmerman
7. S&L 800 with die flaws


And if so, would you sell at that price? Would you buy? Because if someone would not sell if an owner, the price is too low. Likewise if one would not buy, the price is too high. It seems as though the S&L and K&Q come up all the time, but the Jucnkers do not, therefore I would assume the value higher.

[Brian S]

Then what would a reasonable price be for a nice condition with ribbon, uncased

5. Junckers lazy 2

Buy: $7,500

[tom hansen]

Buy: $7,500

You may have a long wait, Brian.

[George L]

$$$

The $7500 seems a bit low for a Juncker. I'd say that's about right for the others, though.

Good luck with the search!

George L

[mott5ranch]

OK, I'll break the silence.

Many of these Knight's Cross's are sold and traded among fellow collectors. Often the standard condition is one must keep it and if and when the first buyer decides to sell....the first seller gets first shot at a reduced price. Sometimes the re-sale price back to the seller is determined when the item is sold up front. It's a gentlemans agreement, it's a hand shake.

Many times the original seller wants the cross back but he wants it to remain with a fellow collector who will give him first shot at getting it back. Usually the first seller needs some cash for whatever, but he does'nt want to lose the cross competely. So he sells it with a life line , so to speak. I had a cased lazy 2 that I purchased for $2500 . . .great deal right? Two years later I returned it for $3000. I could have kept it, but that wasn't the spirit of the deal. Yes, this happened several years ago, but I'm positive it happens all the time.

However, if one was to buy a such a cross, without connections, he or she may pay a healthy RETAIL price. My example of an agreement above often extends beyond just Knights Crosses. Greg and I have such an agreement on a few other items. So does Greg and Mike..... Bill and Bill ..... Jake and Michael . . . etc. In a few weeks a deal will go down between Gary and Jeremiah. It's all part of the Wehrmacht collecting thing.

What is a Knight's Cross worth? Whatever one can get for it . . . .without conditions, friend to friend, collector to collector, man to man( or woman), the price can vary.

[Ludwig]

Kc

Last time I sold a cased Juncker´s "lazy 2" (about 18 months ago) I got more than USD 10000.00 – from a dealer wellknown to all of us!
Today I wouldn´t sell one so "cheap".

[Luftm40]

About 5 years ago I paid $12K for a cased L/12 w/ the original wearing ribbon. The cross was awarded to a Battle of Britain era fighter ace. At the time, the price was astronomical...now it doesn't seem so unreasonable. Its one of my favorite items.

[Gerd W.]

Hi!

Think 10 to 12K for a cased (light worn) L/12 is the normal dealer price today.
Had two offers for a Junckers last year, price range 8000.- to 8500.- EURO (both cased, both light worn, both with COA´s and both were/are no doubt pieces). Bought the one for 8000.- and I´m very happy with .

Cheers

Gerd

[ChrisJ]

Hi!

Think 10 to 12K for a cased (light worn) L/12 is the normal dealer price today.
Had two offers for a Junckers last year, price range 8000.- to 8500.- EURO (both cased, both light worn, both with COA´s and both were/are no doubt pieces). Bought the one for 8000.- and I´m very happy with .

Cheers

Gerd

The prices will continue to rise.
Best buys at the moment are S&L crosses...(just picked another up myself for a song)

[Dietrich Maerz]

Real RK's are an international commodity traded on the open market. Prices are set by dealers in accordance to what they think is the maximum they might be able to get. Dealers are comparing prices to each other and will align themselves along a rough guideline. Some are higher; some are lower, but not much.
For us, I guess, Detlev is the one setting some guidelines and he's in Europe and he's pricing in Euro!

Under the (correct) assumption that currently a "regular, normal S&L, K&Q w/o case" goes for € 7,300.- , the today's US$ value is $ 9.230,-. One year ago, the same € 7,300.- cross was $ 7,756.- !!!!!

The current $ 12,500.- value alleged by Dave is heavily based on the exchange rate and is therefore a momentary snapshot but no long term value nor development. And it is unfounded for an uncased cross.

To give a perfect example of this:

- lets assume a base line of € 5,500.- in January 2001 (reasonable)
- lets assume the dealer rise the price every month by 0,8% in €
- the today's price would then be (and is) € 7,327.-

For us here in the USA the price in January 2001 would have been $ 5,156.- (i.e. € 5,500.0) as a base line. Even with the 0.8% per month rise in price, the low price for us here was in July 2001 with $ 4,971.-. Even with a price increase from the dealer of 4.9%, our price dropped by 3.6%, i.e. a total swing of 8.5% less!

Currently the opposite is true. The dealer is at a price level of 133 % increase against January 2001, we here are at an increase of 179.7% !! Clearly, 46% of the "current USA price increase" comes not from the dealers rather from the quite volatile exchange rate swings in our disfavor.

This fact cannot be ignored and I warn against "self-serving Hurrahs" for the unbelievable return on investment. Maybe it stays like that, maybe it even continues, most likely not. Just in the last two weeks a USA cross "lost" approx. $ 200,- because of this equation. It's macro-economics, not collector value!

Another assumption:

If the 0,8%/month trend in Europe continues (which it cannot without end) the price might be a € 7,650.- in July 2004. And also if the Exchange rate changes to the long predicted and "correct" 1:1 ratio, the now praised $ 12.500,- cross can be bought in Europe for $ 9.900.- and has lost 23,5% in value over 6 month!

We also should not forget, that the big price jump was in 99-00 due to the change over to Euro. If one looks into Detlevs 1999 price guide, the RK was around DM 6.000,- (i.e. € 3,000.-) This changed quickly and settled on a DM/€ = 1:1 as it did with a lot of other commodities in Germany. At that point in time the exchange rate to the US$ was also around 1:1. This was the biggest price jump yet and was again a macro-economics deal, not a collectors deal.

So the only thing that can really be said about this is that a US collector should sell his cross in the USA with reference to the current Euro price. He might be able to buy the same type of cross in 6 month from Detlev for 20% less! The trend in the USA is downwards, not doubt. The exchange swings of the future will be bigger than the price increase in Europe.

Dave would not have started the same thread in December of 2002 with an exchange rate of 1.01, i.e. 26 % less! It's just a snapshot and it is Greenspan's fault!

However, prices will constantly go up, no doubt. Cased Juncker's will also demand more than other crosses, no doubt there. But I don't see the current increases in the USA as real for the above reasons.

Now the USA has an absolute 46.51 % price increase against the price in Euro, but the British are only by 14.09% higher, the Koreans are 44,76% above and finally a Russian with his RK could book a price increase of 50.17%. All artificial!

Dietrich

[George Stimson]

Dietrich, you are an absolute treasure!