1st Class Spange by the Unknown Maker

[Robert P.]

My goodness, a gaggle of birds! Fantastic collection.

jon, I tried in vain to locate anything made by 'L/57' (Boerger & Co) in the various forums. I did find two threads on L/57 flight clasps, but the photos therein were deleted.

[streptile]

There is a theory that Boerger made this EK1:





Personally I have no idea if this is a Boerger piece, but one example of this exact cross exists with a '22' mark that is said to be original. I reiterate: I have no idea if that's true.

Robert, how does the catch wire compare to your Spange?

[Robert P.]

Look at this!

[streptile]

Wow, that's pretty interesting. Not conclusive, of course... but it makes perfect sense to me that a single maker would use the same catch wire for every award and decoration they made with a pinback. The wire, after all, just existed in a spool. For each catch it was (in some order) clipped, bent, hardened and attached. Of course each maker would have used the same wire stock.

Now... the similarity between the R-3 EK1 and the Spange is undeniable. But we really don't know who made the EK1. Could have been Boerger. I am interested to hear why Jon believes the Spange is a Boerger. For one thing, it could be one small bit of evidence to discover the maker of the cross!

[Robert P.]

Yes, there were many makers who used this flat wire stock for their catches. Here's another catch on an Unknown Maker spange; look how differently it is bent, yet still the same flat wire stock...

[tinmantis]

yes that IS interesting
why I have been leaning towards L/57 being the UnkownMaker is a mix of logic, ellimination, and gut

I'd expect all 'prolific' makers of EK2 spangen to have also produced EK1 spangen
and
I'd expect some degree of similar design to be evident in both classes

Almost all spangen makers made both classes (probably all did)

'L/57' were one of only 4 who produced 1st pattern EK1 spangen, then also first pattern EK2 spangen, then 2nd pattern EK2 spangen, then... nothing? or TheUnknownMaker?

J.E.Hammer&Sohne, and Ziemer&Sohne both have seemed to only have produced unmarked EK2 spangen, no EK1 spangen (well, none have appeared as yet) strange, but hey!
These two maker's design are not apparent in TheUnknownMaker spangen

There seem to be many elements of L/57 evident in TheUnknownMaker spangen
most obvious: the wreaths are identical and very different from any other spangen maker...
I'm sure if we keep looking real proof will surely appear sooner or later

regards
jon

[streptile]

Jon, you make a very good case for attributing the Unknown Maker EK1 Spange to Boerger.

Here are some examples of the presumed L/57s mentioned in Jon's post

First Pattern SP2:


hkusp40

Second Pattern SP2:


George Stimson

Now, Jon: is this the one you consider to be an L/57 First Pattern SP1?


George Stimson

...and the Unknown Maker:


robert piercerobert pierce

[CMSgt]

Comparison

I have compared my First Model L/57 against my unknown maker and have the following findings:

1. The wreath is different
Unknown maker the swastika touches four corners
L/57 there is beading around the swastika

2. The claws are different
Unknown maker the outer toes have a large hump above the wreath
L/57 the toes are smooth to the wreath

3. Catch
Unknown maker uses flat wire
L/57 appears to have been cut out

4. Date box the 1's and 9's appear to be similiar but do have differences.

Hope this helps.

Jim

[tinmantis]

compared to every other maker's wreath, TheUnknownMaker looks like L/57 (IMO)
regards
jon

[streptile]

compared to every other maker's wreath, TheUnknownMaker looks like L/57 (IMO)
regards
jon

I do agree with you there. Plus, there are distinct differences in the talons between all four examples. The only real sticking point for me is the head; the three presumed L/57s have pretty consistent heads. The Unknown Maker's is clearly different. If we posit that the wreaths are similar because the same engraver made these four pieces, what happened to his consistency?

It's not a slam-dunk, but all in all I think it's a fairly convincing case ... and, crucially, no other maker fits the available evidence as well.

[tinmantis]

If it IS L/57...
it does beg the question: where are the J.E.Hammer&Sohne and Ziemer&Sohne EK1 spangen?
or
why did they only make EK2 spangen?
regards
jon

[streptile]

If it IS L/57...
it does beg the question: where are the J.E.Hammer&Sohne and Ziemer&Sohne EK1 spangen?
or
why did they only make EK2 spangen?
regards
jon

Well, just for the sake of the exercise, can you make an argument for the Unknown Maker Spange being Hammer or Ziemer based on anything other than the fact that those makers made 2nd Class Spangen?

I should also point out that some makers were licensed to made the EK2 but not the EK1, as far as we know today... and tooling up for making a EK1 (if you are already making the EK2) wouldn't be nearly as difficult as tooling up to make the EK1 Spange, even if you're already making the EK2 Spange. So it seems perfectly possible, maybe even likely, that a few makers would only make EK2 Spangen.

Let's also not forget that the need for the EK1 Spange was considerably smaller than for the EK2 Spange.

[tinmantis]

Let's also not forget that the need for the EK1 Spange was considerably smaller than for the EK2 Spange.

true, and the need was getting less and less as the war continued for both classes

Hammer or Ziemer do not resemble TheUnknownMaker in any way
they never made 1st classes, and no 1st patterns. They seem to be one shot wonders, which I don't understand as yet
maybe we'll never know, maybe they were bombed, maybe shared dies, maybe sold out to each other, went out of business etc

L/57 cranked out the lot: 1st pattern EK2 and EK1, and 2nd pattern EK2, and multiple dies of each. They were producing quite a bit for a long time to not have attempted the 2nd pattern EK1 spange?

'Although' we see a ton of TheUnnownMaker spangen, and extremely small amounts of 2nd pattern L/57 EK2 spangen

regards
jon

[streptile]

L/57 cranked out the lot: 1st pattern EK2 and EK1, and 2nd pattern EK2, and multiple dies of each.

Hey Jon, just out of curiosity. Have you ever seen the "L/57" first patterns marked (I guess with a PKZ number)? Or have you concluded they are L/57s for the other reasons (design similarities, etc.)?

[tinmantis]

I've not seen any 1st patterns marked
but the similarities between the L/57 1st and 2nd pattern is more than enough evidence IMO
regards
jon