EK1 Deutsches Reich Gebrauchs Muster (D.R.G.M) 653146

[streptile]

(Schickle and Meybauer EK1 Spangen, W&L and Juncker EK frames, to name but two)

I need to correct myself here. I meant to say, "Schickle and Mayer EK1 Spangen..."

[5tefan]

Is this a Zimmermann EK1, with carry over screw?

[streptile]

Is this a Zimmermann EK1, with carry over screw?

Zimmermann? I don't see any reason to suspect Zimmermann had anything to do with this cross, personally.

The frame is pure, 100% Deumer. The core looks like a soft-strike of a Deumer core -- the date numerals are the same design, but with less definition. I think it's most likely a Deumer Schinkel that's had a threaded post and Meybauer hardware added. When was it added? Who knows. Early WWII or early 21st C, no way to say.

Incidentally many collectors suspect Deumer frames and cores to have been used postwar to make up Schinkels and Imperials. I'm not sure about that, but I do know a lot of Deumer Schinkels show up, some in ridiculously mint condition, over 60 years after they were supposedly made.

[Roglebk]

Deumer frame and core, totally sure about that. Weird to see a Meybauer screw and plate on it.

[ben bijker]

Is this a Zimmermann EK1, with carry over screw?

?
I thought you already knew what it was???

[5tefan]

?
I thought you already knew what it was???

No I don't know the maker, I still need some help in that case.
Special from people who have a identical cross

I found some EK1 1914 with identical frame!

Is it possible that Meybauer use this type of frame?
Or is it possible that other maker was using this srew?

And one more question: Did you have seen the kind of edge treatment of the screw before?

[Douglas 5]

Interesting you should post that 1914 cross Stefan . It too has the Zimmermann characteristic corner spike features . Finger prints ... something the engraver added to all the different company dies .

Douglas

[streptile]

Interesting cross there Stefan! Would you guys agree the inner beading characteristics of this one are a match, too?

[Douglas 5]

No , they do not match .

Douglas

[Douglas 5]

I understand why you posted that 1914 and it is all about the inner corners . This type of corner points has been used by other engravers , but they are exicuted differently . K&Q engraver did the same type of corner finishing but very small and dainty and therefor hardly noticeable .

Douglas

[streptile]

Given the irregularities of this cross, I would not personally buy it.

As I said before, it was just the core that troubled me. The date numeral design looked
like Deumer dates, but the strike was weak and there was something slightly off about
it. I think now I have found a match to the date numerals:



Let's keep in mind that, if someone had access to this exact core and bought a 1914 EK1
(perhaps just like the one shown above by 5tefan) for about €200, a nice €800 Schinkel
could be made up without too much trouble. I don't like this one, but I'm not 100% sure.
I do know that it's not a Meybauer Schinkel, that the hardware and the frame do not
match according to known originals we've seen thus far, and that the core looks suspiciously
like the ones found in fakes... and after all, a 1939 Schinkel core is the only really
expensive thing in this setup. Also, the date numerals are too low in the frame compared
to standard Deumer cores, and just the same height as the one shown as a fake above
and below.

Here's another fake one with the same core as the fake shown above:



...and the thread-starter, again:



I guess, finally, that my personal opinion is that this is a put-together with a 1914 EK1 and
a recently manufactured core that is disturbingly close to a Deumer core, but with just enough
differences to distinguish it from an original.

With fakers out there doing their dirty work, and prices being what they are, I prefer to stick
to textbook examples on some items, including Schinkels.

Here is a correct Deumer:

[George Stimson]

Would this be a proper Meybauer obverse, then?

[streptile]

Textbook, in my experience, George. Damn that's good lookin'

[George Stimson]

Here's the reverse.

[streptile]

Awesome, George! I love seeing these.

The more I think about the thread-starter, the more convinced I am it's fake.

Someone is out there swapping cores. We've seen good round-3 EK2 cores swapped into LDO-marked EK1s, we've seen good 1870 EK2 cores swapped into 1914 EK1s, we've seen bad 1870 EK2 cores swapped into good 1914 EK2 frames, and some of these have been Detlev's fake-of-the-weeks. All the soldering looks great, and the patina consistent across the seams. Someone is out there doing this, and now I am 99.9% convinced, looking at 5tefan's core, that it matches known-bad Schinkel cores, and is swapped into probably a good Meybauer DRGM 1914 EK1.

I do not relish telling anyone I think anything they own is fake, but no other explanation makes sense to me.

The core is a known fake, and the cross is bad, IMO.