Is provenance important?

[Blaue]

Hello to you all:


I would like to know how many of us believe that the fact of knowing the original bearer of an award gives an additional value (both historical and economic) to it.

I know the difficulty of asserting certain provenance, but I believe it is highly ramarkable when it happens.

Sometimes I feel that we focus much more on an award condition (which is obviously of interest) than on the facts that are behind it.


Thanks for your opinions.

[robin morley]

Hi, Coming from a background of collecting Victorian campaign medals. For me it is very important to know the origional bearer of an award, this allows me to research the bearer and for me allows me to put it in its correct historical context. I would much prefer to own a bruised and battered award knowing to whom it was issued than a mint example and know nothing about its history.

Other views will differ however I will pay a premium for attribitable awards.

Robin

[rfleming32]

For many the value of a grouping is the sum of its parts. For me, knowing the provenience of a piece has value; both historical and monetary. The strength of the provenience makes a big difference however as does the context. For instance, the Glunz grouping (luftwaffe ace) is pretty much undisputable. A highly decorated individual should command a much better price. Many items are attributed and cannot be adequately substantiated. An example, at this time, would be an awarded example of the 935/4 Knights Cross. In short, there are not that many well substantiated items where you can absolutely determine that the awards truly belonged to the person. Well documented items of that class are hard to come by (rare) and worth a premium. Often it is a story that cannot be objectively proven and people do not give much value to that as you will see in many posts.

[Philipson]

I would say that of course it is an extra if you know the recipient.
But when higher prices need to be paid, it requires proof and not just hearsay, even when its true.
What is the value of a grouping without the paperwork to back it up?

A name or grouping can also be a tool to squize an extra $ out of the naïve collector.
It seems its always the same dealers that offer unproven unsubstanciated groupings with one nice award, then include the broken EK1, the BWB without paint, the unmarked EKII without the ribbon and a number of other pieces wich would not sell easy individually.

[Jos L C]

Is provenance important ?

Yes and No IMO.
But what's important is if the item is real ..

We live in a community where 80% or more of all stories are lies, remember.., even vets are selling fakes like noone else.., dealers are putting groups together and make up a story and now the funny part, the good original groups are split apart and sold seperately etc, etc..

Stuff you get from families or recipients has provenance, if they're honest, all other stuff is what you believe ..

Jos.

[Philipson]

"Sometimes I feel that we focus much more on an award condition (which is obviously of interest) than on the facts that are behind it."



I agree we all love shiny pieces. I could not resist a deshler Hoard KVK1.
I do not regret buying it. It is really very nice. But it is also lifeless. We know for sure these were never awarded. It does not have more "soul" than a copy.
Hard words, i know, but this i believe.

Collecting paper groupings is in my opinion, by far, more interesting than owning any award.
These papers will tell you alot about a number of years in a persons life. What could be more interesting to collect when you are passionate about military history?
Exept... paper scares me to death. I may get some reaction from the paper collectors here, but i just can not feel comfortable with these.

Another thing that may detach collectors from the meaning or history of these badges is the variant collecting in itself. When i see collectors with 120 variant woundbadges, i believe they only see makermarks, variations, rarity and no longer blood, anxiety, despair, sacrifice, pain,...

I think you raise a few good topics here.

[Ludwig]

At least an emotional value. IMO.

[Blaue]

I sincerely appreciate your comments.

I feel I am having the result I desired: pointing out the soul of our hobby, as I have realized that we often focus on "technical" facts more than on the people that had to suffer or take heavy risks to gain the awards that today we have on our hands.

It is in a way a matter of respect. I agree with you all, and I like reading things as:

“This allows me to research the bearer and for me allows me to put it in its correct historical context” and “Well documented items of that class are hard to come by (rare) and worth a premium”.

Moderated with wise words as “We live in a community where 80% or more of all stories are lies", or “We can not resist Shiny pieces, But are lifeless”.

In other words, it is difficult to state provenance, but we should not renounce in order to keep history alive.

[Steve Campbell]

"Sometimes I feel that we focus much more on an award condition (which is obviously of interest) than on the facts that are behind it."

Another thing that may detach collectors from the meaning or history of these badges is the variant collecting in itself. When i see collectors with 120 variant woundbadges, i believe they only see makermarks, variations, rarity and no longer blood, anxiety, despair, sacrifice, pain,...

I think you raise a few good topics here.

The practice of collecting the same medal for maker marks, variations etc is a large factor in what drives this hobby. It is not a minor occurance. A good majority of collectors collect a narrow area and many only collect one or two types of items. The maker marks and variations are what keeps them going. Look at an unmarked Iron Cross verses one marked with a heard to find maker. Both items are almost indistinguisable to even collectors, except for the maker mark or in most cases a slight variation in design, hardware or construction. The marked piece will be in much higher demand and bring a larger price. The history of each piece won't factor in. You will even see groups broken up because one collector only wants the documents and another wants the awards. No love of history there.

I have collected based on variants and maker marks, but at the same time I appreciate the history behind each item, even if in most cases with unnamed medals, it will never be know. All I know, is when I look into a display case of my Iron Crosses, I'm looking at over 100 stories, and I wonder what happened to the recipients. Who were they? Are they still alive?

As for provenance, I don't mind a story, but I don't want to pay for it if it can't be proven.

[Kaleun]

"Sometimes I feel that we focus much more on an award condition (which is obviously of interest) than on the facts that are behind it."



I agree we all love shiny pieces. I could not resist a deshler Hoard KVK1.
I do not regret buying it. It is really very nice. But it is also lifeless. We know for sure these were never awarded. It does not have more "soul" than a copy.
Hard words, i know, but this i believe.

Collecting paper groupings is in my opinion, by far, more interesting than owning any award.
These papers will tell you alot about a number of years in a persons life. What could be more interesting to collect when you are passionate about military history?
Exept... paper scares me to death. I may get some reaction from the paper collectors here, but i just can not feel comfortable with these.

Another thing that may detach collectors from the meaning or history of these badges is the variant collecting in itself. When i see collectors with 120 variant woundbadges, i believe they only see makermarks, variations, rarity and no longer blood, anxiety, despair, sacrifice, pain,...

I think you raise a few good topics here.

I am 100% your opinion. Well put!

[Darrell]

Hi, Coming from a background of collecting Victorian campaign medals. For me it is very important to know the origional bearer of an award, this allows me to research the bearer and for me allows me to put it in its correct historical context. I would much prefer to own a bruised and battered award knowing to whom it was issued than a mint example and know nothing about its history.

Other views will differ however I will pay a premium for attribitable awards.

Robin

Robin .. interesting you say "coming from a Victorian Medal Background". I assume you have now moved into TR?

Well, I'm going the opposite way. No history behind un-named items IMO. They have no tie in with any person. Provenance? I would never believe any unless i received the medal directly from the awardee no matter what anyone says.

However, the named Victorian Medals are for the most part researchable. There is a life story and history tied to the medals. 99.9% of un-named or un-serial numbered medals are objects with no ties.

[Hartigan]

"Sometimes I feel that we focus much more on an award condition (which is obviously of interest) than on the facts that are behind it."

I agree we all love shiny pieces. I could not resist a deshler Hoard KVK1.
I do not regret buying it. It is really very nice. But it is also lifeless. We know for sure these were never awarded. It does not have more "soul" than a copy.
Hard words, i know, but this i believe.

Another thing that may detach collectors from the meaning or history of these badges is the variant collecting in itself. When i see collectors with 120 variant woundbadges, i believe they only see makermarks, variations, rarity and no longer blood, anxiety, despair, sacrifice, pain,...

I think you raise a few good topics here.

I share the same thoughts. I think military items that come from eras of major conflicts carry with them the darkness of these days. By touching them you can get a glimpse of the enormous challenges people who carried them had to face once they were engaged in mortal combat. IMO this allows you to develop a better understanding about what was going on these dark periods of human history. I personally do not like minty stuff, cause IMHO look just like a lifeless material that was produced during the conflict period. On the other hand I consider items retrieved from battlefield to be the ultimate reminders of the devastation people have to face during each war. They bear visible signs of the brutality we can develop towards each other.

My two pennies