Post war L/12's

[Glenn R]

Hi guys, can anyone shed any light on this one. When I first started collecting EK's I recall reading that L/12 marked crosses were at the time generally avoided as collectors had the belief that they were made post war, possibly on original dies. I can't remember where I read it but it niggles me from time to time.
Is there any truth in this or have I made this up in my fevered imagination?

[Luftm40]

Glenn, I remember the same thing about L/12 marked items. People used to avoid them like the plague, and I still do out of habit. They were like RS marked items. This stuff is generally accepted into the mainstream now as real...was this truism completely false or, like most, based at least partially on the truth? Interesting how attitudes change and things that were once fake are now real. There are other types of badges and medals in this same category...supposedly restruck from original dies postwar, and they used to be avoided...now.....? I started a thread about this a few months ago, but nobody really wanted to talk about it

[Dez H]

We know that Juncker’s dies for the Grand Cross survived the war and were used to produce restrikes, now considering Juncker nearly produced all manner of badges and awards, what other dies survived the war? Gordon’s book mentions that Juncker borrowed another firms RK dies and knocked out some RK’s and marked them as their own. I am going by memory here as I am not at home to check my copy. So it seems they did produce medals and awards post war, as did Souval, S&L, Otto Schickle, what other pieces did Juncker produce post war that they also produced during the war? I would assume all of them. <O</O

<O
Perhaps this is originally why people used to steer clear of these pieces like the plague? Nowadays Juncker pieces are some of the most sought after, interesting how things change. <O</O

[Mark S.]

I remember your post Andy, and I was disappointed by the lack of response. From what I understand, GH Osang also used to be regarded as a pariah, and many collectors are very selective when it comes to this maker. Even today, this makers name appears on all sorts of badges, many of which are not agreeable to many collectors.

On this topic though, I do have a few questions.

Which dies actually survived the bombing and ulltimate closure of the Juncker facility after 1944?

I am coming to the conclusion that it seems to be hit and miss (no pun intended), some items such as RK are "safe" because the dies were supposedly destroyed, yet other dies lived on to become a source of post war fakes.

There is a lot of misinformation from the past that came to be proved wrong, or at least not applicable to every instance. The low swastika on crosses for instance; later investigations proved that in some instances a low swastika is actually acceptable. How many genuine crosses were passed up using this criteria as factual proof?

I think that the "new age" of collecting, using the internet as a tool, has enabled many collectors to seperate the wheat from the chaff. Blanket assessments such as "JMME is a bogus maker mark" , which may have been true in some instances in the past, now has been disproved by detail oreintated collectors. I suppose in some instances, this could hold true for Juncker marked pieces as well. In this day and age, simple "truisms" dont hold the weight they used to, although they might be the springboard for a more thorough examination.

[Luftm40]

Mark...yes you are right, but truisms usually have some basis in fact. JMME is another one. It used to be that no one wanted something w/ that mark on it. In fact, there was an old magazine article written about it..I forget where, that said it came down to the style of MM. I read it, but don't have a copy. In the last post I mentioned REDO SA sport badges. These were restruck too, and I'd be willing to bet that most people who have a nice mint set of all three actually own restrikes. Thats why I've always liked the Fechlers, BNL etc in this badge. There are good REDOs...I think this was discussed in the thread, but again it comes down to the MM. Honestly, I have always wondered (emphasis on wonder) about the so-called J3 Juncker pilot badges in buntmetal. I think with badges and medals, the provenance of a piece is exceptionally important...restrikes are perhaps more of a presence than most care to admit

[Sal Williams]

Boy do I find this thread scary!
Best, Sal

[Glenn R]

It is an interesting thought given that Junkers command such prices these days. If something has been struck post war on original dies how does one tell the difference?

[Frank Heukemes]

I am a bit surprised to hear about these "truisms" and very likely they must have originated in the US and pretty much have been kept there. Of course I will not deny that some dies might have survived the war in perfect shape and restrikes were done.

The REDO thing I DO have heard of in Germany and I have posted in some therads what I think or was taught is the difference between a real and a repro one.

But I still think that some things just would not show up in a correct way in a restrike. Such as finish or base metal. Finishing processes have so much changed since the war, so did materials/metals that restrikes would only be dangerous if made directly after the war with basically the same production techniques and materials.

One thing that will just not go into my mind: if these dies existed after the war, we strongly have to assume they still do. So the big question is: Why stop to churn out these restrikes in say 1960 and not continue to do so today??? These restrikes would fool much more people than the halfway thought through attempts at "recreations" we have to deal with in here all the time. And don´t tell me these restrikes are still done and fool us because they are perfect. If one would restrike let´s say an Osang Luftwaffe Ground Assault badge and finish it today (and even "age" it today) we would STILL be able to tell the difference.

In my opinion, many of these JMME, L/12 and Osang theories can be credited to sheer paranoia. I ask believers in these theories, where are restrikes made with those dies 10 years ago or one year ago? And if they are apparently not there, then why not? We didn´t have another war to lose them again.

Maybe the appearance of L/12 and Osang marks on so many BOGUS items was the reason for those theories.

Look how little Souval items are still able to scare us today. I for one do not shy away from them and enjoy them very much, because there ARE ways to tell the post war ones from the wartime ones.

Cheers, Frank

[Brian S]

Good info Frank.

Send me your L/12 restrikes if they match the one in the recent thread Part Three RK for Newbies. I can't get enough of them.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I fully agree with Frank. As can be seen with the S&L there is die deterioration over time and quality drops considerably.

The current day forgers are the best example of how difficult it is to reach the quality of the real thing, even with all the bad intent behind it (and all kinds of methods and machines).

Dietrich

[Brian S]

I'm definitely with Frank and Dietrich on this.


Ich bin ein Berliner!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Brian,


which means you are filled with strawberry jelly?

[Brian S]

No just a little lemon schnapps my mutti made for me

[Robert P.]

Hello, all.

I like Frank's simple statement:I for one do not shy away from them and enjoy them very much, because there ARE ways to tell the post war ones from the wartime ones.

Cheers, Frank

I fully agree. I'll ask the obvious, does anyone have any pieces to post that they believe fall into this category as possible 'restrikes'? I would like to know what to be aware of. Any examples? I am still in the learning mode and need all the help others can offer.

Is there a definate difference in the L/12 mark on the post-war 'restrikes'? And are the other features on these restrikes different from the war-period pieces? I am one of those searching for the Juncker pieces. I like them very much.

Respects.
Robert<!-- / message -->

[Dave Kane]

Hello all...I spent a wonderful afternoon with a fellow member of the Forum and encouraged him to look, feel, smell and all in all touch and study many of the things I've collected!

Point being...when I brought out and he held an L/12 Knight's Cross (after inspecting an S&L) I loved his reaction.....adlibbing but I saw a "WOW" in his face and heard "wow' in his commentary!

The original stuff is just that...and ofcourse speaks (or shouts) for itself!

Dave