EKII Round 3, a maker mystery soon solved?

[Roglebk]

Never bought the old theory that Deschler made all the 4 standard Round 3's. It is based on the "Deschler hole" found in all versions in the framehump where the jumpring attaches. Too much differs in the frames imo, why have 4 different dies to make the same type of cross? Started to look at the cores instead and found some interesting similarities in all of them. Pics are not the best, paint job and die wear differs and only have one of each R3 version to compare with. Some similarities can not be seen in the pics, a loupe is needed, but they are there.

1. Between the 1 and the 9 there is a edge, it's like the 9 is put "on a base". The hardest one to make out is the 'Thick' because of very thick paint on this cross.

2. A hump on the forehead of the first 9. It looks bigger on some of the versions. Probably a die wear flaw that expanded over time.

3. "Double edge" inside the curves on the 3 and 9's. Best seen in the center of the 3. Hard to explain this, but it's seen on all versions.

4. A hump or connection between the 3 and last 9. This is only seen on 3 of the versions, again a die wear flaw.

Tried to remember any standard crosses with those similarities but drew blank, someone else can point them out maybe?

One that shows most differencies from the others is the 'swaz on base' version. That one i believe is a remade die. One guess is that these really are by the same maker and that logically it should be Deschler but why have the same cores and not the same frames? One maker could very well supply 3 other makers with cores too and at some time the die wore out and had to be remade, creating the "swaz on base" core version.


in pic are:
Deschler, top left
Thin, top right
Thick, bottom left
Swaz on base, bottom right

[Douglas 5]

All I see is 2 core dies amongst these 4 :
The back curvature of the 9 indicates nicely the difference of the 2 core dies and the thickness of the 1's .
The 2 left and the 2 right cores are from the same die each . The furthest point in the curvature on the 2 left 9s is right in the middle . On the 2 right ones the furthest point in the curvature is higher at the top 3rd of the 9 ! 2 different font styles of 9s . Juncker and W&L cores show the same 2 types of 9s !!!

Douglas

[Roglebk]

All I see is 2 core dies amongst these 4 :
The back curvature of the 9 indicates nicely the difference of the 2 core dies and the thickness of the 1's .
The 2 left and the 2 right cores are from the same die each . The furthest point in the curvature on the 2 left 9s is right in the middle . On the 2 right ones the furthest point in the curvature is higher at the top 3rd of the 9 ! 2 different font styles of 9s . Juncker and W&L cores show the same 2 types of 9s !!!

Douglas

Hi Douglas, i see it now and that connects the 'Deschler' R3 Version with the 'Thick' and the 'Thin' version with the 'Svaz on base'. What do you think of the "9 on base" flaw (nr 1) and the "double edge" flaw (nr 3). Those connects the both cores imo and i have never seen those flaws in any standard cross core, have you? To me they are 4 totally different crosses with 4 slightly different cores but all connected somehow? Here is the Deschler core to point out the nr 1 and nr 3 flaws better.

[Roglebk]

Now we established some kind of connection with the Thick (right) and Deschler (left). 2 totally different frames.

[Roglebk]

And a connection between the 'Thin' (left) and the 'Swaz on base' (right). Imo the nr 1 and nr 3 flaws connects the 4. Either same engraver of the dies or the die were reworked over time. That leads to the conclusion that the four were made by the same maker (Deschler) or that there was a very close cooperation between the 2 to 4 different makers. Any comments?

[Roglebk]

Took a look at a Deschler Horde standard cross and the 9 on base flaw is there too. Pic is bad but flaw can be seen clearly.

[Robert P.]

Yes, I see the characteristic base on the Deschler horde cross, just as the others have. This alone is very interesting, and points us to the 'all Deschler' theory of the many R3's which have the same bases under their '9's.

[streptile]

That leads to the conclusion that the four were made by the same maker (Deschler) or that there was a very close cooperation between the 2 to 4 different makers. Any comments?

I'm at work, just time for a quick note here, but I think it more likely there was some cooperation between whomever made these cores (say, Deschler) and other companies who bought them. R-3s were in production a short time. No single maker would run through multiple different frame types in that time, in my opinion. Perhaps Deschler made the cores and sold them to others, perhaps some other company made the cores and sold them to two, three, or four companies (including Deschler). But -- for now -- I don't think Deschler made all R-3 EK2s.

Finally, great photos, great effort, great ideas, great thread. Thank you.

[Robert P.]

Thank you, Trevor, for bringing my uneducated ideas to a good and proper balance. I'm still the student here, of course, with only two weeks into R3's!

[Douglas 5]

As Carl in post 3 just shown us - the good close up .... that die was re-worked like many makers had done . Have go over the core more , it is possibly we actualy have one core that may have been even reworked twice !!

Douglas

[Douglas 5]

The more I look at the entire core ..... we do have just one core , as where die touch-ups have created 2 core variations !!! In this case the Swastika may have been re-worked at a different time than the date was . Juncker did the same - a few small touchups .

Douglas

[streptile]

I'll just add that, of the four main R3 EK1 variations known, 3 are known to be made by Deschler. I believe, however, that these differ from one another only in their reverse hardware, not their frames (all of which are typical Deschlers). And the fourth EK1 variant, which is -- as of now -- an "unknown maker," utilizes a pin very similar to those found on Deschler DKs.

The "unknown maker" R3 EK1 from my collection:



And an early Deschler DKiG:


Photo left: WAF member Tim Ball right: WAF member tom hansen

...and by the way, the "unknown maker" R3 EK1 has the core with the ridged '9.':



I've been aware of the 'Deschler made all the Round-3 EKs' theory for some time now, and I'm not a believer, but I'm very open minded and willing to be convinced.

I'm always extremely happy to see a new conversation about Round 3 makers; it's one of my favorite subjects.

[Roglebk]

I'm at work, just time for a quick note here, but I think it more likely there was some cooperation between whomever made these cores (say, Deschler) and other companies who bought them. R-3s were in production a short time. No single maker would run through multiple different frame types in that time, in my opinion. Perhaps Deschler made the cores and sold them to others, perhaps some other company made the cores and sold them to two, three, or four companies (including Deschler). But -- for now -- I don't think Deschler made all R-3 EK2s.

Finally, great photos, great effort, great ideas, great thread. Thank you.

Thanks Trevor and i agree, the most logical would be that the maker of the core, Deschler i believe, supplied some others. Why have 4 different frames? Next step will be to sort out the frames. Maybe there is a connection there too, more than the "Deschler hole".

[Roglebk]

The more I look at the entire core ..... we do have just one core , as where die touch-ups have created 2 core variations !!! In this case the Swastika may have been re-worked at a different time than the date was . Juncker did the same - a few small touchups .

Douglas

Thanks Douglas, totally agree!

[Roglebk]

Trevor, compare the "unknown maker" R3 EK1 core with this pic (Thick & Deschler core), think there's a match. Would be interesting to compare the frame on the EKI to frames from the 'Thick', 'Thin' and 'Swas on base'.