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Strange EK... Godet core & odd frame

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    #16
    Gordon Williamson speaks of the EKII:

    " In reality, of course, it is more than likely that crosses would be made up in small batches to fill orders from the Prasidialkanzlei (possibly for no more than a few hundred crosses at a time). It would not be economically viable, however, for a firm to set up a press to run off, say, 200 frames (possibly as little as 10-15 minutes production time), so they would most likely run off bigger batches and keep them in storage awaiting orders from the Chancellery.
    The numbers involved, and the method of production means that it is extremely unlikely that any firm would have a second set of dies (which would be expensive and time consuming to make), or be required to sub-contract out parts of the manufacturing process to other firms when considering a rare award such as the Knight's Cross. But this may well have happened with lower grades such as the Second Class which were manufactured in great numbers.
    Bear in mind that we are looking at a wartime economy where the production of additional sets of tooling at considerable cost in both man hours and resources, to allow sub-contracting of manufacture of pieces which are made in low volume, is illogical. No hard documentary evidence has emerged to suggest that this was done for any other than the more common awards.
    The sad fact remains that if a particular rare or desirable award which purports to be by a specific manufacturer displays die characteristics different to known originals by the same maker, then the most likely cause for this is that the variant piece is in fact not original."

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      #17
      really very interesting Robert , especially for me 'cause I don't have his book.
      I have seen another one a long time in Germany and I have decided to buy it today, after to have read this interesting thread. I think this is an original core by Godet of course, I 'll share it when 'll arrive. I hope measures confirm what I think... ...

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by robert pierce View Post
        Gordon Williamson speaks of the EKII:

        " In reality, of course, it is more than likely that crosses would be made up in small batches to fill orders from the Prasidialkanzlei (possibly for no more than a few hundred crosses at a time). It would not be economically viable, however, for a firm to set up a press to run off, say, 200 frames (possibly as little as 10-15 minutes production time), so they would most likely run off bigger batches and keep them in storage awaiting orders from the Chancellery.
        The numbers involved, and the method of production means that it is extremely unlikely that any firm would have a second set of dies (which would be expensive and time consuming to make), or be required to sub-contract out parts of the manufacturing process to other firms when considering a rare award such as the Knight's Cross. But this may well have happened with lower grades such as the Second Class which were manufactured in great numbers.
        Bear in mind that we are looking at a wartime economy where the production of additional sets of tooling at considerable cost in both man hours and resources, to allow sub-contracting of manufacture of pieces which are made in low volume, is illogical. No hard documentary evidence has emerged to suggest that this was done for any other than the more common awards.
        The sad fact remains that if a particular rare or desirable award which purports to be by a specific manufacturer displays die characteristics different to known originals by the same maker, then the most likely cause for this is that the variant piece is in fact not original."
        Hi Robert,

        Do you think some faker has got his hands on some Godet cores?

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          #19
          Originally posted by Danny70 View Post
          Hi Robert,

          Do you think some faker has got his hands on some Godet cores?
          No, I don't. I'm of the opinion that whoever made this UB frame needed a core, and Godet supplied it (them). That's one scenario. Like Gordon stated the bar was 'set lower' with lesser level awards to meet contracts.

          Comment


            #20
            Hi Danny :
            I took the same measurments as yours on my reduced size UB to see how close they were . Here they are .
            Yours :................................................. Mine- common size reduced small Ubergross
            A = 21.07............................................. ..A = 20.21
            B = 5.87.............................................. .B = 5.90
            C = 10.93............................................. .C = 10.96
            D = 37.30............................................. .D = 38.19
            E = 42.02............................................. .E = 42.69 with bead step - 41.60 with out bead step
            F = 25.35............................................. .F = 24.80
            G = 44.55 wide and high......................G = 44.70 wide and 44.97 high :

            The verdict is :--- It matches close enough to be considered a Godet U'bergross EK2 ! Minor variances are do to the 2 different makers .

            Douglas

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by Douglas 5 View Post
              .....The verdict is :--- It matches close enough to be considered a Godet U'bergross EK2 ! Minor variances are do to the 2 different makers .
              Hi Douglas,
              Thank you very much for your time spent studying this cross, and apologies for not responding sooner. I think I am more confused now than when we started!!

              I'm just wondering, would this really qualify to be called a "Godet Ubergross EK2"? when it is only the frames that resemble the ubergrosse 'little brother' (in appearance as well as size).
              I haven't had the chance since to check any other crosses to see just how close the same measurements are to this one and your ubergrosse cross.

              BTW, would it be possible to see some pictures of your ubergrosse?


              One more question,
              Are not the ubergrosse 'little brother' crosses just standard ubergrosse with the flanges trimmed / filed down?
              In my collection, I do not have the 'little brother' variation, but only the standard (large) size ubergrosse. I have used this to compare with the Godet and there is a noticable difference in size between the beading of the two.

              I Have added a picture showing the ubergrosse overlaid on the Godet and the differences are quite obvious.

              I believe there are two makers of the ubergrosse (large size) - are these both the same size as each other (as regards the beading)?

              Thanks again for your help.
              Regards - Danny
              Attached Files

              Comment


                #22
                Hi Danny:
                There is no deadline for replies . Every member has other things to do and cannot be on here 24/7 .
                Yes - the U'bergrosse Cross : it,s original use from 39 on was short lived and the dies were shelved . The Cross production shortage in late 42/43 once again put the UB dies back into production - to help with the demand- under the stipulation that they can only be in the normal EK size . This means 45 x 45 ....! As you will have noticed , ... the UB beading is larger(further apart) than the regular beading layout = inside measurments are larger - so in keeping with the EK size the beading in the frame ends up very close to the frame edge . All that was used is the UB frame die .... and the frame cut and finished with the regular EK tooling . For this reason the beading ends up so close to the outside frame edge . The regular EK arm cutouts are larger and as seen in your overlay this creates the uneven inside frame edges . Normaly the UB core has to be used as the normal EK cores may not fit !! It depends on the design of the core ! It is lucky for this maker that the regular core can be used as the core edges on this Godet core die are flat and do not have "Edge ridges" that are used alot - where the inside bead edge hooks over the core to keep the core from sliding around . Without this edge ridge on the core ... it can be cut larger to fit the wider beading , otherwise this ridge will show on 2 sides of the cross and look bad !
                To your questions : The frame is the more dominant and important part of a cross and the UB destinction is identified by that and the core goes silently with it .Differences do exist between makers as they to the most part had their own dies .
                The " little brother" exspession was only a spur of the moment catch frase Daniel originaly came up with .... more appropriate or fitting it should be called : 'A 43 U'bergross EK' !
                Hope this clarifies your questions :

                Douglas
                Attached Files

                Comment


                  #23
                  Sorry to be a killjoy but imo Dannys cross is not in Übergrösse frames. At least not the ones shown in this thread, including this pic. Does anybody have the other version Übergrösse to compare with? Not the "filed down small size" but the other maker version. Is there a second version? I never saw one.

                  See this thread for more comments: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?p=3552810
                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by Roglebk; 10-15-2009, 05:23 AM.

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