Unmarked EK2 --> seeking maker info. + opinions please

[streptile]

Hi EK people,

I am confused about which maker this EK2 is. I thought "23" but the date numbers don't necessarily match others I've seen.

44m x 44m 19.6g.





Your help is very appreciated.

Trevor

[streptile]

No one has an idea about this one?

Any help is very welcome.

Thanks,
Trevor

[fabri-online]

No one has an idea about this one?

Any help is very welcome.

Thanks,
Trevor

Hello,
infortunately I can't help you about manufacturer...
in my opinion it 's original and very fine, dates has lovely numbers with own charateristics.

[streptile]

Thanks Fabrizio,

I am very surprised no one has an opinion about this maker. I happen to love the design on the cross: the dates and especially the frames -- very little curvature to the arms. This one is also nice in-hand.

I am very interested to hear from anyone who may have a match in their collection? Marked or unmarked.

TR

[streptile]

I am depressed about the lack of response for this beauty.

This EK came in a packet marked for Carl Forster + Graf packet, which I know are a) controversial, and b) unassigned both for LDO and PKZ numbers.

So I'll put another question:

Can anyone else who has a Carl Forster + Graf packeted EK2 have a look at theirs and see if it might match this one?

Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to check!

Trevor

[Robert P.]

Trevor,

I haven't participated in this thread because I've been waiting for someone with one like yours to jump in. This is the first I have seen of this number design. It looks just too nice to be a fake. I like the cross, and would consider it original if others like it with providence would surface. Until then it's a 'nice' cross. I own what some consider to be an unmarked CF Zimmermann EKII. Like others who own the same I am waiting for more info to surface to properly identify it accurately. I realize it could be something postwar, and at the same time hope it's wartime. You know the rules on authenticating something. When I first saw how well the '333' was manufactured I just couldn't believe it was a fake. The idiot who decided on stamping them with this high number wasn't thinking at all. At very least they should have left them unmarked, or ring-stamped them with a '2'.

[streptile]

Trevor, I haven't participated in this thread because I've been waiting for someone with one like yours to jump in. This is the first I have seen of this number design. It looks just too nice to be a fake.

Funnily enough, I never even considered it might be a fake. I will post some vital signs and different photos later. I can't believe no one has one like this to post.

Oh well, I'll just keep bumping this one up to the top until someone posts a match

Trevor

[Roglebk]

Hi Trevor, can only second Roberts thoughts. Never saw a cross like that. Have a unmarked 'Juncker framed type' that Douglas thinks might be a fake that i will post later. Those unmarked ones that surfaced the last years are very hard to authenticate. I bet there still is original ones, that have not surfaced yet, out there...

[streptile]

Hey Carl.

Thanks for your input. I don't want to give up on this one... it's become a intriguing mystery to me. Also, I love the way this one looks: the minimal curvature of the arms and the quality of the workmanship.

So here are some more photos, taken at an angle, and a date composite. If anyone has even an idea, let me know please.







Thanks,
Trevor

[MH184]

Hi Trevor,


The problem is this. How can you be certain the cross and CF&G packet weren't married together.....????

The problem being there were several hundred or so of these CF&G packets found and they've been sold off from the main German dealers to UK e bay and then further around globe, too.

So all things considered even if you were to own a ''genuine pair'', it's likely it would somewhat induce more than its fair share of scepticism; I know I'm of more than a dubious inclination when I see CF&G sets sold.

I'd actually like to see some 'sets' of these that were in collections long before the packet finds.

I think one of the German (Aktinium) collectors on the forum sold what he purported to be a set he discovered out of the woodwork, so t speak.

Does anyone recall that example?



Kr


Marcus

[Douglas 5]

I have seen this too - and as Robert was hoping for - other samples from other members to be posted .
Quit an unusual 'short-neck' 3 which I have see once befor but did not same any pictures . The bead design I have seen however and hope I have pictures of , still looking for . Fakes have gotten - core and frame bead construction and shape could give clues .
Being tied up in other projects I have not been able to look into this intently enough . This would require buying all known fakes to get their bead shape and construction , or collect good pictures from other members . Fakes are getter better so we have to get better and incorporate finer detailing to keep up .

Now as to your cross I am still not sure what it is . I would appreciate some side bead shots if you can make some . This will not guaranty an answer . Everthing is a fake until I can convince myself it is good or most often someone beats me to it !

Regards , Douglas

[streptile]

Hi.

It's great to have a few people weighing in on this cross, even if only to stimulate some discussion, so thank you to all who have done so. I am really interested to figure out who made this one as I find it among the most beautiful EK designs.

Quite an unusual 'short-neck' 3 which I have seen once before but did not save any pictures.

Douglas: it is a distinctive design, and another member here, a "big gun" EK collector, has PM'ed me saying something similar: he thinks he's got one of these in his collection but can't find it at the moment. As my collection is pretty small (and I certainly have no match), I am waiting in the hopes that someone else will post one from theirs.

The bead design I have seen however and hope I have pictures of

I hope so too! It is the design of the frame that I find so appealing on this one, and is the reason I bought it. I love the straight arms and pointed inner corners.

I would appreciate some side bead shots if you can make some.

I certainly will. Do you mean the inner corners near the swastika? Or taken at an angle? If you can show me or tell me what kind of photos you'd like to see, I will make them.

Hi Trevor

Hi Marcus, thanks for jumping over here from Cases + Packets.

The problem is this. How can you be certain the cross and CF&G packet weren't married together.....????

Yes, indeed. Aren't there manufacturers who only made packets? Who were they? And is it possible that CF+G were one of these? After all there are no known awards of any kind that come with verifiable CF+G marks, as far as I can tell. Hypothetically, if GF+G were packet makers, then it'd make some sense that different EKs turn up in their packets.

I'd actually like to see some 'sets' of these that were in collections long before the packet finds. I think one of the German (Aktinium) collectors on the forum sold what he purported to be a set he discovered out of the woodwork, so to speak. Does anyone recall that example?

I would be extremely interested in seeing it.

Thanks again everyone.

[Douglas 5]

Hi Trevor ;
A picture side shot like this and a good same resolution top shot - showing some - maybe 10 beads , what ever you can get is fine . This one suplied by Carl .

Douglas

[MH184]

Hi.




Hi Marcus, thanks for jumping over here from Cases + Packets.


Yes, indeed. Aren't there manufacturers who only made packets? Who were they? And is it possible that CF+G were one of these? After all there are no known awards of any kind that come with verifiable CF+G marks, as far as I can tell. Hypothetically, if GF+G were packet makers, then it'd make some sense that different EKs turn up in their packets.


I would be extremely interested in seeing it.

.

Hi Trevor,

Actually mate we know that Mothers Crosses come in packets attributed to this maker, and I know of West Walls too!!! I confess though I've not exactly been proactive in searching specifically for other awards by this maker.....leave this with me, I have an idea to help matters though.

In fact I think we did find out some very limited info on the company, but nothing relevant to aid us here today. It was a certainly an award manufacturer. Like I say, leave this with me and give me a week or two

Oh, there were ten to the dozen paper mills that produced paper/cardboard wares, and there were indeed a few more prolific manufacturers in that field.

That's an interesting cross you have there regardless, so I hope more of the guys will contribute to this thread.


Kr


Marcus

[streptile]

Hey Marcus,

Thanks for the info on CF+G. I guess what I meant was: we have no evidence besides diverse unmarked awards turning up in their packets. For example, we don't have any period advertisements or documents or catalogues from them with a PKZ or LDO number, as was found from Otto Schickle, right? Or numerous marked awards -- say, 25 known examples of a "75" marked BWB being found or sold in a CF+G packet? These kinds of things would tend to be the first steps in building our understanding, I'd think. I will check back for more.

Hi Douglas,

Here are some photos as requested. They are nowhere near the quality of the ones Carl supplied, but I hope they're sufficient? They are both of the 7 o'clock corner of the obverse face, the first from the side (ish):



And then the same area from the top:



I can try again if these don't work.

And, finally, one more in daylight:

<------ EDIT: What is the deal with photobucket? Their "terms of use" seem very random.

Thanks!