Souval Frame Types

[Douglas 5]

Hi all :
There have been a few Souval EK2s being posted lately , so I thought it is time to finaly post this question about frames . Besides different cores there are - to me - different Souval frames . I could not find anything mentioned about them in the Forum or pinned Souval post .... but the one item that distinquishes them is the frame mounting indecator . Worth having a look at : Crosses used are owned by jt327gir Type 1 .... HuD Type 2.....evilmike Type 3 .... Buuzert Type 4 !

Douglas

[Roglebk]

Very interesting, by the shape (and lack of) the 'jumpring indicator mark' it sure looks like 4 different frame dies but all 4 has the typical 'connected beads die flaw' on the 12 O'Clock arm? Does that suggest a 'Master die' that all 4 were made from or is the 'Master die theory' just out of the big picture? Could it be because they shared frames with the EKI, that didn't need a indicator mark, that they added it to the EKII dies later? R Souval was a major manufacturer and would certainly wear out 4 dies in the whole war i guess. BTW where does the theory come from that all crosses with the typical 'connected beads die flaw' is war time?

[George Stimson]

Interesting indeed, and it just goes to show how little we actually know about the entire process by which these awards were made.

[Buuzert]

very interesting Douglas.

But type 4 is not mine...

Type 3 is the one i have and its unmarked!

[VIPER]

Makes one wonder how that would impact the A/B type S@L debate.....Jimmy

[Douglas 5]

Buuzert :
Sorry if I got owners mixed up ...... had to mention source . I had the picture down loaded from a post from 05-03 - 2009 -as type 4 . And evilmike Type 3 from 03-04- 2009 . Posts at times are started by one member and other ad pictures ... even some get sold to others and may now have different owners .

Douglas

[George Stimson]

"Makes one wonder how that would impact the A/B type S@L debate....."

Yes it does.

[Douglas 5]

George : The A/B debate at S @ L ??? Not sure what this refers to ??? Is this meant to be S&L Knightcross Type A and B ? The Souval frame comparison I did was done without anything else in mind .

Douglas

[George Stimson]

Douglas

Well, a lot of the S&L debate hinges on theories of "mother" and " daughter" dies, and whether they even existed. Or whether making multiple dies was economically feasible versus repairing worn old ones. Your research here seems to indicate that Souval had no trouble making multiple dies which even exhibit the same die flaws. In that way it contributes to the S&L debate. (Not that any firm conclusion can necessarily be made....)

[VIPER]

For an idea of how accurate working dies can be made from a master one need only reach into your pocket and look at the change. Look at the almost microscopic initials of VDB under Lincolns bust on the penny. Pretty accurate I would say.

[tinmantis]

before I say anything, bare in mind it's friday, and I'm drunk

I've been thinking about dies myself lately, mainly regarding spangen though

There's an artist's 'model', wax/plaster etc. about 10x the size of the intended medal/spange/oak etc (one piece)
then some sort of pantograph/reducing 'machine' to reduce that 'shape' into a 'master hub'. Which is super hardened.
This in turn can bang out a few 'master dies', which themselves can bang out 'working hubs'. The working hubs are used to form the actual working dies that pop out the spangen/frames etc

Depending on how many ek frames etc are needed, more of less working dies/hubs are needed

I'm thinking 100,000 is an average working number for a feasible award?
how many hubs? how many dies? were a few of these steps missed? maybe for the less awarded stuff...
can the working dies be modified because of flaws etc? can the actual working hubs be repaired/changed? can even the master dies be repaired? or does it all go back to the steel master hub if anything need changing?
Were the master dies from 'big manufacturers' 'loaned out'? changed? repaired? for whatever reason?
I'm kinda thinking there's a multitude of reasons why dies are slightly different
phew, where's the wine?
regards
jon

[tinmantis]

and
but surely only the final working dies ever had flaws? but this shows that the working hub had the flaw, and the working dies were modified?

[Douglas 5]

Thanks George :
As much as I would like to study them ( Knight Croses) I have my hands full with Ek2s and 1s . Most of the answers - we need to solve current unknowns - we will find amongst these crosses . The Souval comparison does not support the master die theory but actualy the oposit , as the manufacturing is totaly different .
Viper ;
I have collected coins for a long time and applying the same technic from coin making is incorrect thinking . A flat to rough surface can be coppied and traced with a fine tip engraver off of a master die ( or mother die ) , ... and you get superb copies . Engraving a iron cross bead grove that deep mechanicaly impossible ( modern laser you can!) , and tracing it even less . Coin dies- depending on planchet material - may last 100 000 strikes with the die being polished 3 or 4 times . Proof coins dies used around 10 000 strikes and destroyed . A multi molde cast copies to make the 2 dies halfs would make a mirror copy but with less detail .
These Souvals ; The beading matches on the arms but the corners absolutly not . See corners 2 and 4. With the information given , exactly what I exspected . The reason for looking into these was the 2 different bead shapes .... to see or determine if any of these could be a post war frames .

Douglas