EK2 Spange "first pattern

[tinmantis]

a confusing and interesting thread, but I think we're getting somewhere

2 styles of this spangen: viened and un-viened
2 dies of the un-viened spangen: tail-feather and no tail-feather

we're concerened with an un-viened no tail-feather die
but it seems there maybe this die was 'cleaned up' (with swirls) (or whatever) or even was earlier than the pebbling one. Same die, different detailing?...

The Detlev fake has caused me much confusion in the past. I hadn't realised it was cast. not repro. As the 'swirley' spangen is so rare, I took the swirls to be a fingerprint of the fake.

I'd also added this to my list of fakes. The swirls, the 800, the later prongs, surely bad! maybe not eh!
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=spange+800

then I remembered this one too:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...+L%2F57+spange

so
I'm thinking: the new Detlev one: good, George's: good, NTZ's: good, Sammler's: get those pics posted!
regards
jon

so

[streptile]

Interesting explanation, Marshall. Thank you.

The bigger pic sure helps.

It helps us to see Detlev Niemann's (now Marshall's) example, but to solve the question that began this thread we need detailed closeup photos of Sammler's Spange.

In other words (if Marshall is correct), there are 2 different dies for this 1st-Pattern Spange:

a. One with veined feathers. Forget about that one for now.

b. One with unveined feathers.

There exist original examples struck from this die that have been hand-finished so much that the eagle's head now appears to have a "windblown feather" coming off the back of it. Detlev Niemann's recently-sold example (shown here) is one such orignal.

There have also been fakes made by casting one of these overly-finished examples. One of these cast fakes was featured as Detlev Niemann's "Copy of the Week" and is shown here.

We can not know which Sammler's is -- an original hand-finished example or a cast fake -- without better photos.

I think that's about where we are at this point.

~Trevor


EDIT: I posted this without seeing Jon's post above...so, a bit of repetition.

[streptile]

I wrote:

b. One with unveined feathers. There exist original examples struck from this die that have been hand-finished so much that the eagle's head now appears to have a "windblown feather" coming off the back of it.

Jon wrote:

2 dies of the un-viened spangen: tail-feather and no tail-feather.

Maybe I misunderstood. Can we clear this up?

[tinmantis]

'tail-feather' meaning feathers between the eagles legs
here's an example of the same maker, but different die from the one we're concerned with
this is from the 'tail-feather' 'non-viened' 'non-swirly' die

It also seems that the ones with the 'swirly' patterning, also have the 'windblown' head feather. Maybe not so much hand-finishing, as a different 'cutter' die?
regards
jon

[streptile]

'tail-feather' meaning feathers between the eagles legs
here's an example of the same maker, but different die from the one we're concerned with this is from the 'tail-feather' 'non-viened' 'non-swirly' die

Ah, got it. Thanks, Jon.

Maybe not so much hand-finishing, as a different 'cutter' die?

Excellent theory; makes perfect sense.

~TR

[Sammler]

Here are some , better shots? This one seems to have the "grain" effect in the wings.

[Sammler]

Reverse , I like the prongs , they are not round and it is unmarked. A nice real piece of ribbon was thrashed to show this.

[Sammler]

thickness, I used a quarter to compare almost like a Prauge bar in thickness.

[tinmantis]

I say again: such an interesting thread!

I'm re-evaluating my whole view of early L/57s:

I'd been thinking of these as from either 'viened' or 'un-viened' dies
when in fact maybe they're from either 'tail feather' or 'non-tail feather' dies
only two main dies?

One 'tail feather' die. Non-viened, later refinished with viens
One 'non-tail feather' die. later refinished with 'swirls' (for whatever reason)

what's really bugging me, is that the numeral '1' has a flaw under it in many examples, 'tail feather' or not!
not quite worked it out huh?

and let me also be the first in saying that Sammler's looks much better now!
regards
jon

[tinmantis]

also
here's a 'swirly' and 'non-swirly' pebbling to compare
see if it's from the same die:

[Sammler]

Used a loop , there is no flaw under the 1 on mine ? The bottom of the the number also does not touch the border.

[Don D.]

I just can't get past the lopsided nonsymetrical wreath, hand finishing or not.

[Biro]

I just can't get past the lopsided nonsymetrical wreath, hand finishing or not.

Hi Don

That's the deal with these babies... see THIS example (George Stimsons)which I posted earlier. Wreath is lopsided and the '1' also exhibits the flaw I mentioned in the same post. Crappy finishing around the head. This one is kind of a 'missing link' if you like. Perhaps George can supply a better photo - the current one looks like he used floodlighting to illuminate it....

Heres another lopsided wreath.... JUNCKER .....this time on an original Juncker 1st pattern.
Marshall

[George Stimson]

Marshall

Maybe this pic is better?

[George Stimson]

A little closer....