Zimmerman Fire

[streptile]

With so many crosses and decorations offering the "Zimmerman Fire" story as provenance, I have been getting very curious about it. I'm starting this thread as a place for people to post what they know, what they've heard (and from whom), questions, theories, etc. It'd be nice to get a consensus on this.

Perhaps someone can start by relating the broad strokes, as I myself don't know them: When did the fire supposedly happen? Where? When was the "hoard" discovered? Who found it?

(Mods: If this is the wrong forum, please move the thread)

[Roglebk]

Hi Trevor, a lot has already been written, in too many threads i think, would be nice to have all the info in one place.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=345277

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=333733

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=326098

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=170361

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=303413

[Roglebk]

Probably the first thread about the lot

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=112519

[streptile]

All right. I would love to assemble all the collective knowledge about this story in one thread; maybe we know more than we think? I'll start it off by listing what I've read so far:

The Fire and the "Discovery"

The story is that a cache, or hoard, of Third Reich-era decorations and medals was discovered in the ruins of a burned-out factory, said to be the C F Zimmerman factory, a respected manufacturer or orders, decorations and medals.

During World War II, the Zimmerman factory was located on Dr. Fritz-Todt Straße in Pforzheim, Germany - not in Lüdenscheid as sometimes reported. Pforzheim was heavily bombed during the war, and the street name has changed since then.

The "discovery" of the hoard happened in or shortly before July, 2005 but no one can say just when the fire happened, although it is believed the fire was during World War II. Why the hoard remained undiscovered for some 50 years is unclear.

There was an uncommon number of rare awards discovered in the hoard.

Items (said to have been) discovered:

--At least one (1) German Order, unfinished condition.

--Five (5) 1939 Großkreuze. Marked? I need clarification. Also at least one (1) GK core.

--At least one "21" marked Oakleaves and one "21" marked Oakleaves and Swords.

--1939 Zimmerman "800" and "20" marked Ritterkreuze. At least 10 are said to have been found. 5 or 6 are known to have been sold. One came from Bill Shea of Ruptured Duck. One from Helmut Weitze. One from Barry Turk at eMedals. Some had no ribbon loops. Some had Imperial-style oval loops, as expected with Zimmerman RKs. At least one had a standard TR-style loop. All examples show signs of rust, melted solder and burning, but at least one was "restored" before selling. There is some evidence that more marked Zimmerman Ritterkreuze remain, as yet unsold.

--Burnt and bent Ritterkreuz parts: frames and a piece of core were sold with COA by Detlev Niemann as a lot. A core is offered as of this writing at eMedals.

--"Several" lower grades of the EK marked "20" This could be EK1s or even EK2s, of which no "20" marked examples are currently known (by me) to exist.

--Five Prinzen EKs. One was a 1914 EK1. One was a rare Prinzen 1939 EK2. The class and issue year of the other 3 are unknown at this writing.

--An uncut frame and a separate cast iron core for a 1914 Großkreuz.

--Assorted odds-and-ends: unfinished awards and decorations, an EK2 core, an uncut EK2 spange, c. 80lbs. of mostly unrecognizable rubble, etc etc.

I need more information about just what was discovered here. Please add what you know to this thread, and I can update this list if need be.

Authenticity:

The Zimmerman RKs, at least, are known to be identical to wartime manufactured examples - all markings, dimensions and die flaws are the same as known originals - and are therefore considered genuine. This goes a long way towards authenticating both the story and the other items offered with this story as provenance, but is not (in my view) decisive.

Additionally, the 1939 EK2 core's date-style from this hoard seems a perfect match to known Zimmerman 1939 EK1 core date-styles, offering further evidence that the hoard did indeed originate in the Zimmerman factory.

Please: weigh in on this, folks.

[AlikN]

...
--Two (2) 1939 Großkreuze......

According to Detlev Neimann he had five 1939 Grand crosses.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=114274

[Roglebk]

Hi Trevor, you did a very nice job in summing it up. The people that alledgely found the lot told the dealers that it was found at the site of the C F Zimmermann factory, that is sure. It was said to be bombed during the war. Barry at E-medals, who bought the bulk of the lot from Detlev N, told me that 5 Prinzen size crosses were found but not from which time and what class they were, there is one 1914 3/4 Prinzen EKI for sale at his site.

http://www.emedals.ca/catalog.asp?item=GEM593

[streptile]

Thanks Alikn and Carl, the main posting has been updated to reflect your information.

Any more info on markings of the Grand Crosses?

Any more info on the story? Other items found?

Thanks... Trevor

[sturmfront]

medals

hey there im new or i havent been active here fore 4 years but i think i may have this medals from this fire

[sturmfront]

All right. I would love to assemble all the collective knowledge about this story in one thread; maybe we know more than we think? I'll start it off by listing what I've read so far:

The Fire and the "Discovery"

The story is that a cache, or hoard, of Third Reich-era decorations and medals was discovered in the ruins of a burned-out factory, said to be the C F Zimmerman factory, a respected manufacturer or orders, decorations and medals.

During World War II, the Zimmerman factory was located on Dr. Fritz-Todt Straße in Pforzheim, Germany - not in Lüdenscheid as sometimes reported. Pforzheim was heavily bombed during the war, and the street name has changed since then.

The "discovery" of the hoard happened in or shortly before July, 2005 but no one can say just when the fire happened, although it is believed the fire was during World War II. Why the hoard remained undiscovered for some 50 years is unclear.

There was an uncommon number of rare awards discovered in the hoard.

Items (said to have been) discovered:

--At least one (1) German Order, unfinished condition.

--Five (5) 1939 Großkreuze. Marked? I need clarification. Also at least one (1) GK core.

--At least one "21" marked Oakleaves and one "21" marked Oakleaves and Swords.

--1939 Zimmerman "800" and "20" marked Ritterkreuze. At least 10 are said to have been found. 5 or 6 are known to have been sold. One came from Bill Shea of Ruptured Duck. One from Helmut Weitze. One from Barry Turk at eMedals. Some had no ribbon loops. Some had Imperial-style oval loops, as expected with Zimmerman RKs. At least one had a standard TR-style loop. All examples show signs of rust, melted solder and burning, but at least one was "restored" before selling. There is some evidence that more marked Zimmerman Ritterkreuze remain, as yet unsold.

--Burnt and bent Ritterkreuz parts: frames and a piece of core were sold with COA by Detlev Niemann as a lot. A core is offered as of this writing at eMedals.

--"Several" lower grades of the EK marked "20" This could be EK1s or even EK2s, of which no "20" marked examples are currently known (by me) to exist.

--Five Prinzen EKs. One was a 1914 EK1. One was a rare Prinzen 1939 EK2. The class and issue year of the other 3 are unknown at this writing.

--An uncut frame and a separate cast iron core for a 1914 Großkreuz.

--Assorted odds-and-ends: unfinished awards and decorations, an EK2 core, an uncut EK2 spange, c. 80lbs. of mostly unrecognizable rubble, etc etc.

I need more information about just what was discovered here. Please add what you know to this thread, and I can update this list if need be.

Authenticity:

The Zimmerman RKs, at least, are known to be identical to wartime manufactured examples - all markings, dimensions and die flaws are the same as known originals - and are therefore considered genuine. This goes a long way towards authenticating both the story and the other items offered with this story as provenance, but is not (in my view) decisive.

Additionally, the 1939 EK2 core's date-style from this hoard seems a perfect match to known Zimmerman 1939 EK1 core date-styles, offering further evidence that the hoard did indeed originate in the Zimmerman factory.

Please: weigh in on this, folks.

i have some i think medals

[Euronymous]

Please read that article: http://cq-cq.eu/pf45.html

CF Zimmermann adress was: Luisenstraße 55 Pforzheim

The name of that street stayed the same after the war even today.

[Douglas 5]

Good article Thomas .
Did find a picture close to the Zimmermann factory and the bombing plaque .
A 417 meter artificial 'Hill' was made of all the surrounding rubble - named --> Trümmerberg .

Douglas

[Euronymous]

Thanks for sharing these photos Douglas. Please tell me if the CFZ adress I wrote in the last post is correct ?

I have a doubt now because at the beginning of the thread streptile said: "During World War II, the Zimmerman factory was located on Dr. Fritz-Todt Straße in Pforzheim"

[Allan P.]

Detlev Niemann
Guest


Posts: n/a


<hr style="color:#181B16; background-color:#181B16" size="1"> Good Morning,

It's fairly easy. I had 5 GC and 4 KC "20" and several other "20" marked lower crosses. Also 1 x oakleaves "21" and swords "21".
All these orders were more or less damaged by heavy fire. Some have seen the "found" when I have bought them. All these medals I have sold to several people as no one wanted to buy the "kilogramm" together. I have sold 5 GC's and now have bought one back which is for sale right now.
If 5 crosses were sold by me, than from the next dealers we already have 10 crosses. When the collectors sell them again it looks as if there are 15 crosses now and so on and so on....

regards
detlev

PS: a german buyer has cleaned and restored his cross, you wouldn't think how good it looks again



Hi Trevor,

I bought one of the '20' marked RK from Detlev Niemann at the time, it was the only one he had with an 'imperial loop'.

I was given the option of buying it as it was or having it cleaned as Niemann refers to in his above post. I decided, for wahtever reason at the time, to have mine cleaned. I must admit it looked really good. I think that the 'expertise' that Nieman provided me with had photos of before and after.

I'm sure I would have posted pictures on WAF at the time.

Allan

[Douglas 5]

Thanks for posting that Allan : ... no hint to how these items were found ?

Looking at the pictures - 2 possibilities come to mind . Some one with a medal detector found the items on the " Rubble Hill" or during excavation work what was once the old factory site .
As one can see in the picture town center was only rubble . Removed was only what had to be moved and some filled in holes , leveled the ground and built on top of it .
With old buildings from that time being replaced now it could have been dug up again . This would have been on the news and the items ending up in a museum .
I would not be surprized it came from the Hill - a park where there is no digging and no one is going to admit to it . Just my 2 cents .

Thomas ... do not know anything about the address .

Douglas

[Allan P.]

Douglas, my understanding was that they were found by builders who were clearing the land ready for development.

I suppose that would be easy to check having the address of Zimmermann, someone could find out if any building had been erected on the land, or thereabouts around about that time?

I recall seeing pictures a while back that someone posted on WAF of something similar, loads of old medals dug up from some site somewhere.

Allan