Spanish Cross Opinions???

[Trance_Eyes]

Hi Guys,

What is your opinion on this Spanish Cross in Bronze with Swords please?

Maker mark CEJ

[Trance_Eyes]

2

[Trance_Eyes]

3

[Trance_Eyes]

4

[Trance_Eyes]

I also have these 2..

One maker was L/13 and the other had 800 on the pin and L/21.

Do either of these look OK? Sorry don't have any other pics just yet.

Thanks

[jacques]

Hi,
Better pictures should be great:
- CEJ: in my opinion it is a fake. the color is too dark, several other things don't match to known original; the pin, the eagles design, the MM, the swords grip form. I guess the case is also a fake.

For the two others, without more pics it is difficult. I don't consider drop tail eagles crosses as original, but is you provide better picture of front and back sides, you will get differnet opinion.

I never saw the combination 800 with L/21.

but once again , try to get more pictures

jacques

[Leroy]

I agree with Jacques that much better photos are needed.

If a cross is marked to a certain maker, and you have known original examples from that maker to compare against, this process is relatively straight forward.

The problems arise when you have a cross either marked to a company not known before to have made a cross, or a cross of a different design (drop-tail)
from an unidentified company, or a combination of both.

All you can do at that point, in my opinion, is try to judge whether what you are looking at demonstrates qualities you associate with manufacturing techniques of the period. Is it die struck or cast? Are the features of a particular
part (eagles, swastika, pebbling) well-executed? Is the pin/hinge/catch structure of a kind seen before on other period badges of other types? Does it look (even if unused) like it has been around for 65-70 years? Some of these factors are easy, some are very subjective.

Every fake I have ever encountered, of ANYTHING, is wrong in at least some part. Some are more obvious than others, but there is always some "giveaway" of some type. Although many fakes are very well-made (and getting better all the time), they ARE detectable.

If something has all the workmanship characteristics you associate with an original period piece, then who can say it is fake? In the case of Spanish Crosses, how could a piece be labeled as fake just because the eagle is drop-tail? If the "tail structure" is ALL that is "wrong", then, again in my opinion, it is wrong to say a piece is fake. In (only) my personal observation, there will always be, on a fake, SOMETHING ELSE which gives it away.

The same problem is encountered with Knights Crosses (and, I am sure, other pieces as well). I have RK's with cores which are certainly from S&L and K&Q. Their quality of assembly is outstanding, the beading is clean and well-struck, the loops are well-formed, but they are NOT crosses from either of these companies. The beading characteristics are different, the "eye" is either indented into the frame (as in the Sedaltzek cross illustrated in Dietrich's book) or thicker than that normally seen. Who made them? When were they made? My personal opinion, after looking them over in great detail, is that they are legitimate "pre- private sale-ban" crosses (NOT award pieces). Can I prove it?
Probably not 100%.

Remember this: MOST pieces which deviate from accepted design are fakes. It is not the design, however, which gives them away. It is the actual manufacturing techniques, including material used, which kill them.

[Don D.]

IEvery fake I have ever encountered, of ANYTHING, is wrong in at least some part. Some are more obvious than others, but there is always some "giveaway" of some type. Although many fakes are very well-made (and getting better all the time), they ARE detectable.

We certainly hope this is true but then again, if it is not true, how would we know?

[Leroy]

We certainly hope this is true but then again, if it is not true, how would we know?

We wouldn't! But in 99.99% of the cases, it hasn't yet.

[Trance_Eyes]

Ok guys,

I have now obtained some extra pictures of both the Spanish crosses in question.

1. With Swords Maker Mark L/13

[Trance_Eyes]

2.

[Trance_Eyes]

3.

[Trance_Eyes]

1. Without Swords Maker mark L/21 with 800 stamped on the pin.

[Trance_Eyes]

2.

[Trance_Eyes]

3.