Spanish Cross

[Harvey R Lipp]

Another Cross to look at.

[Harvey R Lipp]

Spanish Cross

Picture 2

[Harvey R Lipp]

Spanish Cross

Picture 3

[Leroy]

What are the dimensions and weight?

[Gary B]

Dear Harvey,

I do not believe there is a need for dimensions and weights as the eagles appear to have droop tails. I do not believe that any original SCs had droop tail eagles, although there are some who believe there might have been some made.

Gary B

[Ludwig]

Don´t like it.

[Leroy]

I do not believe that any original SCs had droop tail eagles, although there are some who believe there might have been some made.

Gary B

I am among that "some", so I am still interested in the data.

I personally am not a big fan of this particular badge, NOT because of the eagles (which appear themselves fairly well done), but because of the pin structure and the fact that the wing tips of the eagles do not appear (at least in the photos) to be soldered to the arms of the cross. IF the tips are, in fact, soldered, then I would certainly like to see this one in hand. The badge shape, pebbling and swastika construction are certainly better than on the CEJ cross in the other post and easily equal other crosses which have been deemed real.

[Gregorio Torres]

Pin and eagle tell me "let it pass" and, in general, good construction details not necesarily mean a item was original. A lot of well known fakes are best in details than period items.
Greg

[Leroy]

Greg,
IF the pin was of a style we liked, would you still reject this badge because of the eagle design?
Best,
Leroy

[andrewb]

Gotta say I don't like it either. Reasons:

1. tails (sorry Leroy)
2. pin.
3. swastika. Right arm looks to thin compared to the rest.

Regards,
AB.

[Leroy]

AB,

Believe me, it doesn't bother me at all if someone dislikes the tails! This is simply a matter of a belief that something MAY have been made.

I would really like to see much better photos of this cross and know its measurements. To me, the swaz looks fine, but better photos in better light would help. The things that bother me, as I said before, are the pin and the APPARENT lack of soldering to the wingtips. The pin itself is a little strange (but not totally disqualifyingly so). The way the pin is attached at the top (off-center), however, is very sloppy to me. I'm also not keen on the wire insert through the hinge, which is crudely clipped off on the left. I have seen real badges like this, but not very many.

I think that some of these badges were made by manufacturers jumping the gun and using an old design. Recently, on GMIC, Jacques and I discussed this. He, too, does not believe in the "drop-tail" eagle on these badges and, of course, I respect his opinion. There are several points, however, that bother me. SOME of them are:
1.) The actual design for the badge, as shown by Doehle (in a line-drawing) shows eagles with 2 different tail designs, in alternating fashion (down, normal, down, normal). This confusion is repeated in the initial official order announcing the Next-of-Kin award. (Note: the "down" tail shown by Doehle and in the order are NOT as extreme as seen on the badge shown here, but are still definitely "down".);
2.) The cross shown on the lid of the Next-of-Kin award case uses down-tailed eagles; and
3.) Many minatures of the badge thought to be original use "down-tail" eagles (every bit as extreme as the badge shown here.)

There are several other points, but I don't want "to beat a dead horse" here. I just think that it is POSSIBLE that there are real crosses using "down-tail" eagles, although they are certainly few and far between. This one just happens to look better than most of the fakes I have seen and I would like to know more.........

Best,
Leroy

[jacques]

Hi,
I'm among those who don't believe, Leroy know it and as he said we fairly discussed it , meanwhile I'm not blind-minded.
On this one, the eagles don't seem to be soldered to the branches.
The pin and hinge could be compared to one of the Steinhauer &Luck variants.

[Sal Williams]

I am sure that if these are good, one day a pic will surface. We have not seen every pic there is to see by a long shot. Until then I remain unconvinced.

Best, Sal

[Gregorio Torres]

Greg,
IF the pin was of a style we liked, would you still reject this badge because of the eagle design?
Best,
Leroy

Yes, I´d reject it.
I´m not sure 100% if this kind of tails did exist in original badges. Some very good researchers as Forman believe in it (see page 9 in his famous guide), but if I´m spending my money in a expensive item as a spanish cross I´d try to buy some item which can be sold easyly one day if needed, and as you can see, a lot of collectors are not very convinced with this.
All of us will change our oppinion if one day somebody show a period photograph with this crosses being worn, of course.
Sorry, I can´t give you more evidences.
Greg

[Leroy]

I, too, am waiting for a photo to be absolutely 100% convinced!

If anybody will find it, I think it will be Jacques, with his wonderful collecting eye and great (and growing) photo collection!

Until then, I'll use my favorite Charlie Chan quote:

"Mind like parachute. Work best when open...."