Great Knights Cross "2"and a doc opinions please

[USGI]

Yes, he is also listed in the book Their Honor Was Loyalty! by Jost Schneider on page 239

[jacques]

Hi Dietrich,

he is listed in the Krätschmer's book; awarded on March 25th, 1945 in Hungary. in Felgiebel's book he is listed for the RK on 6 May 1945. He is a member of the OdR. it was at the very end of the war and dates are not clear
I got this picture from himself but the RK looks to has been added or the picture was taken just after the war. ; that doesn't mean that he really got the RK, there are several sample of self-attribution of this prestigious order, or at the very end, award with no official attribution or entry.

[jacques]

here is another pic of him with same decoration except RK; he looks younger than on the previous pic, that makes me say that the previous pic was taken later, few years afte the war.

[Andy K.]

Juncker "2" KC

No need for more pictures. The cross is a textbook "2".

St3fan

I follow the opinion without reservations. A really beautiful well worn original Juncker “2” Knights Cross.
For the cross with the document of the DKiG you must expect at least a minimum of 8.000 Euro.

That there are no records of the awarding of the KC of Karl-Heinz Lichte in the archives, this would not disturb me. In this case the proof in the book from Walther-Peer Fellgiebel is largely sufficient for me.

Andy

[Dietrich Maerz]

here is what Scherzer writes. IO personally trust him the most because he bases his lists on the only possible documents - and that are the ones in the archives.

Fellgiebel is known to have awarded a lot of Knights Crosses to (paying) members of the OdR. The others just copied the Fellgiebel.

In the end it is up to the individual what he believes. Lichte was for sure an extremely brave man and most likely deserved the RK 100%. Due to the timeline, he never got it.

Dietrich

[Kevin V.]

Yesterday I contacted the thread starter and asked him

Originally Posted by Kevin V.
Hi sir are you selling the lazy2 KC, as I would be very interested in it?

Thanks
Kevin

Hello Kevin,

yes, it is still available. If you are interested in the KC, your offer is welcome.

Kind regards

Martin


But when you look at Helmut Weitze his website it is for sale over there!!

Strange!!


Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuz 1939 "lazy 2" aus dem Besitz von SS-Hauptsturmführer Karl-Heinz Lichte Es handelt sich bei dem Stück um eine typische Fertigung der Fa. C.E. Juncker, Berlin. Besonders wuchtiger matt geschwärzter Eisenkern mit Silberzarge. Rückseitig gestempelt liegende "2" und "800", der Bandring "800" gestempelt. Getragenes Stück, noch ungereinigt, mit sehr schöner Patina. Ohne Halsband. Die Ritterkreuze der Fa.Juncker mit der liegenden "2", sogenannte "Lazy 2" sind die begehrtesten Stücke und nur ganz selten zu finden.
Diese Kreuz stammt aus dem Besitz von SS-Hauptsturmführer Lichte. Karl-Heinz Lichte erhielt als SS-Hauptsturmführer und Chef der 5. Kompanie des SS-Panzer-Regiments 5 der 5.SS-Panzerdivision "Wiking" am 25.März 1945 das Ritterkreuz.
Er verdiente sich die Auszeichnung durch Unterstützung des Entsatzversuches seiner Division auf Budapest im Januar 1945. Wo er von Tata kommend mit seiner Kompanie eine feindliche Pakfront von der Flanke her aufrollte und ohne eigene Verluste 40 Geschütze und 6 Panzer vernichten konnte, wodurch der Vormarsch der Division gesichert werden konnte.
Karl-Heinz Lichte starb am 24.01.2005 in Bielefeld. Das Stück stammt direkt aus einem Privathaushalt und war noch in keiner Sammlung. Aus gleichtem Besitz stammt auch die Urkunde # 116057.
Military antiques > WW II general decorations


Best regards
kevin

[Kevin V.]

Nice cross BTW!

[Luftm40]

IMHO this portrait was taken post war...which was a fairly common thing for RKT to do. He is older, the uniform has had its very non politically correct collar tabs removed and the tunic seems to be fitting quite tightly across a more middle aged belly...

here is a photo of K-H. Lichte

[WEISNER]

Perhaps a member on good terms with Herr Weitze should contact him to ask why a cross he is selling is being offered by a member here?
Kevin

[rkdek]

A simple question, how could a well-worn cross come from someone who purportedly won it in the very last days of the Reich? There was simply no more time to wear it.

Unless of course he walked around with it around his neck untill his passing away in 2005...

[Simon O.]

With regards to the DKiG prelim. It looks fine with the usual dark blue stamped Keitel sig and OKH stamp.

As Dietrich and Andy say, the RK photo was taken postwar a common thing for those that received very late decorations and who never had the opportunity to have a photo taken with all their bits and pieces on.

Dietrich brings up an important point with regard to 'unofficial' awards. From the official perspective a line had to be drawn in the sand for what was and was not to be allowed after the war, there's another discussion ongoing with a similar case for a Stug officer in the research forum.

Personally i'd like to see some original documentation for the award, not an award document necessarily, but something like a recommendation, mention of the award in a tagesbefehl or the like.

We most also be aware of errors and typos made in secondary sources. Some sources simply repeat the same errors and the mistakes carry on unchecked. I found one such example only last week for a DKiG holder where the man's unit had mistakenly been written as 510 when it should have been 310. You can imagine the clouds of suspiscion that would have generated had his award document appeared for sale!

[Kyle Harrington]

Late war crosses

This is a wartime RK alright, however what about provenance ? I am not questioning the validity of the piece, rather what is it's background , that is to say was a collection broken up?This brave man died in 2005 so was there a sell off of his awards?

[frankandfrank]

Lichte never get the knights cross! Also the photo with kc seems as a fake photo!

You can sell a kc better if you tell a good story! But this story is only a bad one! For some collectors who are dreaming !

Its the same about the knight cross winner Waffen-SS : Sailer,Richter and other !! All are not knights cross winners!

regards
ralf