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**Montgomery Burns** · 01-10-2009, 10:14 AM

@Kay

It is not that difficult to determine the originality of oaks or swords. It is only difficult when you do it via photos. When you have them in your hands and can investigate under a good microscope it is fairly easy. If I could show you you would agree.

Dietrich

[/QUOTE]

@Dietrich.

aim working in a aluminium high pressure casting factury.
monday i gonne inform how much efford and money it wood take to make a mold fore a exact copy off these godets

i know alwreddy its possible with dual 3 d measuring systems and laser and water cutting systems.
but if it can be done with these items i wanne know.

and fore handling these items ,,aim schure that the pictures speak a lot fore the first impression.

cant say a handelt a lot off them. but theyre are a so cald new type ???

possible ,,,,yes,,,,,,, again.

but

how can ennyone say theyre original ,,,,how can ennyone proof it.
(if not taken off the grave off a dead soldier)

30000 euro theyre cant be enny doubt about the originality.

the nazie's beleved in a 1000 jears of german domination .
fore all we know they maybe ordered 10.000 oakleafs at godet and juncker.

becouse,,,,
1939 they knew and beleved they gonne be there fore 1000 jears.

the next horde wil be a horde of oakleavs and wil be sold with this story.

thank god aim not huct to knights crosses and so on.

dietrich ,,thank jou fore joure nice words.

respekt kay

**Dietrich Maerz** · 01-10-2009, 10:35 AM

Kay,

the determination of "original' is very easy.

One gets hold of an unquestionable original, like the Hartmann oaks or others. That is possible.

One records the features.

One compares the features.

You might know that I am a mechanical engineer and very knowledgeable about the different manufacturing techniques including laser, 3d and micro casting. All these procedures and techniques have their ups and downs. To copy the oaks one needs to reproduce a very fine pattern with details less than 0.1 mm...

In comparison to originals differences show up and reveal the fake.

One also has to remember two things here:

- nobody will go through the steps to produce a foolprove copy (which is not possible anyway). It is enough to be able to fool 80% of all collectors. Together with a COA it will sell very nicely. No need to fool 99%!

- if nobody can detect the fake anymore....well, then it is an original by definition! The 100% perfect fake is an original! Therefore: there will never be the perfect fake, since there is no perfect fake! Absolutely logical!

**Montgomery Burns** · 01-10-2009, 11:12 AM

i wil take youre word fore it....

wel ,maybe its just handeling them often enouch to know fore chure.

correkt what you say about the pictures... counts fore ek's to
fore all we know it can be from plastik,,,until we having it in our hands
thats the moment we know fore 100% what it is.

but we have to be carefull and be on alarm all the thime .

regards kay

**Steinar** · 01-10-2009, 11:21 AM

Just one simple question: Is it possible that the design on these oakleaves with or without swords changed during the war?

**Darrell** · 01-10-2009, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by Steinar View Post

Just one simple question: Is it possible that the design on these oakleaves with or without swords changed during the war?

I think Dietrich said it all when he stated:

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

Up until yesterday it was clear and accepted that there is only one style of Type 2 Godet (900 21) - nothing else had emerged in the past 65 years!

**Detlev Niemann** · 01-10-2009, 12:20 PM

Good afternoon,

A well advanced collector has pointed me out to your lively discussion. As you are already underway in this I will point you out to some infos you may further follow (or not):

- Fieldmarshall Schörner's set of swords is identical to mine

- Hermann Historica auction 15.10.2004, see oaks to Ofw. Ochs

regards
detlev

**blackbob** · 01-10-2009, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by Detlev Niemann View Post

Good afternoon,

A well advanced collector has pointed me out to your lively discussion. As you are already underway in this I will point you out to some infos you may further follow (or not):

- Fieldmarshall Schörner's set of swords is identical to mine

- Hermann Historica auction 15.10.2004, see oaks to Ofw. Ochs

regards
detlev

Do two wrongs make a right?

**Dietrich Maerz** · 01-10-2009, 12:34 PM

Does that mean that Schoerners swords are cleaned in the same way? The swords seem to be OK otherwise.

I don't know what the Hermann Historica auction means. The same strange oaks where auctioned off? Does that make them real? I certainly don't think so. There were some Rounders auctioned also over the time ...and other fakes.

Fact is this, Mr. Niemann:

IF the oaks are good they are unique in the that way that they are a testament that Godet had two types of 21 900. Up to today this was not known. I personally think that this is extremely unlikely.

Comparing (maybe) one reproduction to another one doesn't make it real (if in fact the Hermann Historica had the same style in the auction).

I am convinced that you disagree but IMHO the oaks are not genuine. They are marked Godet and they are not. That makes the questionable at a minimum.

Dietrich

PS: What is the distinct opinion of the 'advanced collector' (whatever that may be... one who did spend more money than others?)

**Dietrich Maerz** · 01-10-2009, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by Steinar View Post

Just one simple question: Is it possible that the design on these oakleaves with or without swords changed during the war?

Everything is possible. However, this is not supported by the evidence. Early and late awarded Type 2's are all the same and so are the examples found in Klessheim. I would think that over the last 65 years more than just this single set came up as evidence of a second style.

The introduction of 'variations' is a devilish game ...

**Pieter Verbruggen** · 01-10-2009, 04:02 PM

You cannot compare two pics taken from a different angle, lightning...and judge die-characteristics. Any judgments based upon these pics will not convince me in either way.
Pieter.

**Leroy** · 01-10-2009, 04:17 PM

Pieter,
Do you have any thought regarding the '900' stamp?
Regards,
Gentry

**Brian S** · 01-10-2009, 05:46 PM

...and this is why I cherish my L/50 1st model oaks....

**germanmedals** · 01-10-2009, 07:29 PM

Sorry but I couldnt resist to add a comment. I dont have a clue about oakleaves, but sorry I just cant keep my mouth closed.
Personaly I wouldnt even think about considering if the statement of Mr. Maerz is right or false cause he is the expert in this matter. On the other side we have a dealer which is well known to have sold so many fakes for original in the past (naw if this was made intentionaly that only he knows). And another thing, how can a dealer give a COA? He can give a guaranty on buying, not on originality. Who knows how many buyers actualy claimed their money back? My good friend has a good statement,..."That COA is good for only one thing, when your out of toilet paper"

And sorry, pointing out Herman Historica,...not a good way of prooving your right. They are even worst fake sellers.

Those pictures are quite good for comparison of details so it can clearely be seen that the oaks are different.

**Pieter Verbruggen** · 01-11-2009, 05:56 AM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz

Your statement honors you but in this case it is clear as it can be. Just look at the stamp - no need to look further! But I know ....

Dietrich

Godet used 2 types of "900" stamps, no?
Pieter.

**Pieter Verbruggen** · 01-11-2009, 06:21 AM

And the white "frostened" color of the oaks is correct for mint examples. I'm NOT discussing the originality of the piece in question , I have to have it in hand to give an opinion.
Pieter

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