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    #1

    Iron Cross Combo Spange - Opinions?

    Hi Gents,

    I spotted this on ebay, just curious what you all have to say about it (it's NOT mine, just want to further educate myself and others)

    I know there has been considerable debate about these in the past so thought it might spawn some informative comments.

    The makers mark is quite interesting.

    Have a look:



    Close up of maker mark:



    Good hunting!

    Adam
    Tags: None
    #2
    ...Forgot to add. There is no photo of the obverse (seller obviously trying to comply with ebay "rules"). Will request one from him if it might be helpful at all.

    Cheers,

    Adam

    Comment

      #3
      Just another crap, IMHO
      The maker's mark itself is a good point to check that !
      JF Pramer (!!) located in Wienix (suburbs of Wien ?) : very very strange.
      The little caption below appaears to be the name of the street where this so called maker would have produced such gems !
      To my knowledge, no German marker mention his addres on any medals (Am I right)
      Just my 02 eurocents worth
      Regards
      Denis

      Comment

        #4
        I don't mean to quibble, but there were German makers who did in fact have their addresses on badges. Among a few, the most prominent one was probably C.E. Juncker (Alte Jakobstr. 133), followed by Godet (exact address escapes me at the moment), Paul Kust (Seydelstr. 19a), Friedrich Szledazek(?), and others.
        As far as Austrian medals and badges: many makers supplied their addresses . J. Zimbler (Wien, VII), F. Petzl (Wien 15), A. Relada (Nachf. Wien VII, Burggasse 40), are a few that spring to mind.
        I have no idea if this maker is legit or not (same for the medal), but it would not surprise me one bit if it was.

        Comment

          #5
          I did a little searching and I have found out that L.F. Pramer DID in fact produce badges and medals! Don't know if he made EKs but this maker DID exist! The address is good. Don't know about this particular one, though...
          The fact that it is a 1914 EK1 that we are looking at has given me pause-- as everyone knows,anything is possible with them.
          This maker in question seems to have had his heyday between wars from the 20's through the 30's. He also made a lot of enameled tinnies and badges-- not all were military-oriented. Hope I helped a bit!
          Last edited by Eric Stahlhut; 03-06-2002, 04:20 PM.

          Comment

            #6
            I guess got too excited about seeing a new EK1 hallmark. The obvious was staring right at me. Shouldn't the width of the spange be greater than the width of the EK1? Are there exceptions to this rule?

            Comment

              #7
              Isnt Berlin SW 68 a address?

              Accidentally offending people on the internet since 1997

              Comment

                #8
                JUST ANOTHER ILLUSION

                Just another illusion to fool the unsuspecting.

                Comment

                  #9
                  As Eric rightly says, it is far from uncommon for manufacturers to have their address details on the reverse of a piece. Some however are not manufacturers, but retailers.
                  Sedlatzek for instance was not a manufacturer of EKs. I have photos of a screwback 1939 EK1 with the full Sedlatzek details in relief on the screwplate.
                  Obviously he bought the pieces in unmarked from a mainstream maker, and simply added his own screwplate with the firm's details.
                  The reverse hook mounted on a small round disc is known on many originals.
                  Junker in fact sometimes had a large disc with full name and address details soldered to the reverse of their one piece EK/Spange.

                  The Spange should not be wider than the EK, but around the same size at 44-45mm. Given that differences of 1mm or so in overall size are quite common amongst EKs from different makers, all it would take would be for the EK to be 1mm or so oversize and the Spange 1mm or so undersize, and you'd get the differential shown here.

                  Adam, it would be interesting if you could get an image of the obverse. This may well be a fake, but there is nothing to prove this from the view of the reverse. Could just as easily be an early pre-LDO piece.

                  By the way, Adam, as well as using the name, do you collect badges etc from the finest Regiment in the history of the British Army ? Its a passion of mine when I am not looking for EKs or U-Boat stuff.

                  G

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Hi All
                    a little OT
                    But looking at the EK & Spange
                    was it common for the wearer to solder the 2 together , or was it appropriate to pin the Spange above the EK
                    I know the Spange 2nd class was pinned to the ribbon of the EK 2nd class
                    But I never saw a picture of a soldier with the 1class Spange
                    Thanks
                    ~Buddy~

                    Comment

                      #11
                      The seller of this item was very gracious and responded to my query very quickly when I requested a picture a few days ago. I hope he doesn't mind me posting the obverse. His reserve on this item is in fact quite reasonable if this item is original.

                      Sorry, guys!
                      The seller has contacted me and requested that I remove the picture of the obverse. I feel that it is entirely within his rights. I apologize to him for not asking him first and wish him the best.
                      Last edited by Eric Stahlhut; 03-10-2002, 01:17 PM.

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Very interesting. It is not a "factory made" piece. You would not find the base of the Spange overlapped onto the edge of the Cross like this one. Suggests that whenever it was made, it was done by adding a Spange to an existing Cross.
                        Here is a factory made piece.






                        Note that the base of the spange is butted against the edge of the arm, not overlapped.

                        There were many which were converted by jewellers at the time. The problem is that it is very difficult to establish exactly when such work was done, 60 years ago or last week ?

                        Personally, I would only buy a factory made piece unless the price was simply that of the two component parts.

                        Gordon
                        Last edited by Gordon Williamson; 03-10-2002, 11:14 AM.

                        Comment

                          #13
                          mark?

                          Gordon,

                          I can't quite make out the hallmark on your factory-made EK1/Spange combo. What is it?

                          George
                          George

                          Comment

                            #14
                            George,

                            It's L/18.

                            Gordon

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Eric,

                              Perhaps it would be okay to re-post the obverse after the auction ends sometime, I was away and was not able to view it. Could be a good one for the archives/future articles...

                              Gordon,

                              Thanks for your always appreciated imput.

                              And yes, I do collect to the Black Watch... I'm currently a serving officer in the Black Watch (RHR) of Canada. In fact at least 50% of my collection consists of medals and badges of the regiment. I used to have a few "Imperial" Black Watch medals and badges but traded most of them away to concentrate on my regiment as it already keeps me poor enough! I'll show you some samples later on if you wish!

                              Yours aye,

                              Adam

                              Comment

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