Juncker bombing

[Dietrich Maerz]

No, you contacted me asking to use my pictures in your next book, did not ask one question about the content.
The site is not abandoned, its just another one of my projects that will get finish time permitting
The owner (me) did not leave
To answer your question about where I get my materials-from my own research and interviews including but not limited to the family of C.E.Juncker.
Now, at least partial floor plans survived of CEJ factory, quite a big place (36 washrooms listed) but no mention of vault room so the above pic probably shows just another storage room.

Dear Mathew,

here is what I wrote:

Yes, I contacted him about 4 month ago and I never got an answer.

I don't see were I said anything about either the content nor the pictures?? I just said I contacted you. Which I certainly did!

Based on the basic human behavior that one gets an answer when one asks politely (which I hopefully did...) I deducted that the site was abandoned. So more so I am now truly surprised to find out that you know about my e-mail, you are even a member here but you never answered my kind request. That I would not have guessed and therefore said 'abandoned"!

So can I ask you again here: may I use one of the pictures for my book?

Regarding the site: It would have been a lot better tom mention that you got your information from own research (maybe even spelling out what research) and from interviews with members of the family. It adds a huge amount of credibility!

[Darrell]

........
Many left WAF and more stayed and even more are coming daily. However, for somebody who "left" you are reading and posting relatively frequent and that is good!. And that applies to most of those who left! Some just cannot take the heat, good or bad, and only want to show what they have to receive the uncritical "ahhs" and "ohhs."........

Yep, they leave, come back .. say they left, come back, say they are mad ... come back.

Geeez .. if you have left LEAVE

But then again, where they're at not much happen' so they ... come back

[Kevin1261]

That's just a cool picture,hand engraved?any more like this around?

[Douglas 5]

Dear Mathew:

I too had contacted you in a sincere manner about the same time as Dietrich M did , ... regarding the storage room and other research material , as I was trying to identify the dies on the shelve in attempts to date the picture.
Being a member here you most likely already know the interest I have regarding Juncker , W&L and S&L crosses .
Even if the answer was going to be no ... only curtious to a fellow forum member at least to respopnd with an answer !!!

Regards Douglas

[Darrell]

Surely there exist some records of Allied Bombing Raids in 1944 and what areas of the city they hit. Based on the site specifics it maybe possible to narrow down the actual date that the factory was destroyed.

[ChrisJ]

Surely there exist some records of Allied Bombing Raids in 1944 and what areas of the city they hit. Based on the site specifics it maybe possible to narrow down the actual date that the factory was destroyed.

From my own research, the area of Junckers was pretty much flattened in the opening raids of the "Battle for Berlin" November 1943 ...the concentrated raids started on 19th November 1943 and continued through to 24th March 1944.

[Don D.]

I will say this- the picture of the vault posted above may show a "typical" storage of dies for a medal producer but I have my doubts that it is the Juncker vault. Unless I am going blind I see the dies for the PLM, for which Juncker is not a known maker.

[Andreas Klein]

... for which Juncker is not a known maker.

Hello Don,

that wouldn't be a surprise because there are many more makers for certain awards outthere than we believe in. Carl Wild, Hamburg produced the PLM too for example.

So the pictures could show Juncker or any other maker.

[Don D.]

Do you have pics of a Carl Wild PLM? Please post it in the Imperial section if you do.

[Andreas Klein]

Hello Don,

sorry but i don't have pictures of such a PLM.

I only got that information from a former member if the Carl Wild firm when we were on research about subcontracts between several firms.

[Douglas 5]

The dies on the shelf were something I had been looking at .
There are neatly labled shelves and laid out dies .
The original picture on the site is copy right marked and I did not post it with that question . Some of the dies on the self can be identified . This was one of the questions I had asked Mathew , permission to post picture . ... The first row shows different size Cross dies ... and to me I see what looks like a KC die ( poss Spanish Cross , Grand Cross -Test dies or who knows ??) , which would narrow the maker down to a hand full . One shelf is marked 'Luftwaffe" . Looks like only two Spangen on the self . No spaces on the shelf to indicate any dies out on the floor in production - holiday break ? . Bold guess 41/42 picture ??? whoever maker this is .
The company Sass-Wolf Berlin SW 68 : Ritterstrasse 12-14 , though damaged did survive the bombings ... my dad was there on site immediate post war as he was involved with bombing recon cleanup .

Douglas

[Steinar]

The picture in post #9 is just amazing.

Is it impossible that the dies survived? and if so, wouldn't they most likely be in the hands of the families that owned c.e. juncker.. and if so, why would they tell the public "we got the dies"

We can't ignore the fact that since the bombing of Berlin started, they wanted to get the most important dies and items to a safe location. Wasn't something like only 33% of Berlin totally destroyed? Mainly the inner city core damaged beyond repairs, (well it is a lot, but it could be a lot worse), but my point is, how can we know for sure they didn't survive?

IF the production stopped, it might be because it was harder to get the metal needed to make awards in late 1944? that's plausible or what?

If you where the owner, wouldn't you safe keep the family treasures (dies+) from the bombs? This is only speculations of course.

[Tiger 1]

If the dies were not immediately recovered, cleaned and stored properly rust would have started at a minimum. That would distort or ruin the etchings. Heat would have been another killer since they had been hardened.

Don,

Rust formation depends on just a few factors. Humidity, oxygen, iron and time.

Hardening steel, whether case hardening or completely thru, toughens the surface of the steel. This surface also resists rust better than just plain unworked steel.

Immediate rusting would not necessarily be a minimum result that would distort or ruin the 'etchings'. One just has to look at the thousands of unprotected dagger and sword blades and other steel based products (medals and belt buckles for example) that survived decades in unrusted condition without extra ordinary care. I do agree that heat, high heat that would draw the temper, would be detrimental to the integrity of the dies as usable tooling.

As a small FYI, dies were usually hand cut with die sinker chisels and not chemically etched to achieve workable tooling.

Hope this helps some.

Tony

[Don D.]

Tony, I know how dies are made. I also know that when a building is destroyed by explosions you usually have fires too. Then the fire department shows up and douses it with water. The air also contains water. Even if buried under rubble there would be moisture in the air- hence if they didn't recover the dies right away damage could occur. Now, if a factory is bombed what is the priority for recovery? Injured/trapped people, bodies, machinery, records, dies? Who knows what happened.

[Robert P.]

Tool steel (greater than +1% carbon for hardening) can 'flash' rust when exposed to humidity, and stay in this condition for years. 4140 gun steel (1% carbon) can be surfaced hardened, and can become impact resistant for a long duration of time. It can also take on a 'flash' oxidation from humidity. I'm not familiar with what the TR jewelers used for tooling, but I would assume they used something very similar to what is listed here for high-impact use. This steel, exposed to high temperature, and cooled slowly, will anneal (soften) the surface metal. Oxidation of the metal's surface is excellerated in this annealed state. If the steel were to be quinched by water while in this high-temperature state, it would cause deterioration of the surface metal, which would be irreversible. Once a metal containing 1% or greater carbon is surface treated it cannot be annealed and treated again without causing breakdown of the elements of the steel. A rifle barrel (untreated 4140) heated and cooled over and over again from firing will finally degrade in time. So, in the event the dies were heated to a high temp. in the presumed fire of the Juncker plant(s), it is unlikely they survived to be used again. If, on the otherhand, the fire didn't reach the dies (or,part of the dies), it would be safe to say they could be salvaged and used again. Which dies were truly salvaged and used again will remain a mystery. But, we know some of the dies used for Juncker's tombak combat badges were also used to produce the same badges in zinc, and were left unstamped. I'm speaking of their 3rd pattern Luftwaffe flak badge. The 3rd pattern tombak badge was marked 'SW68'. The zinc badges (same dies) were left unstamped. I'm sure we could come up with more of these examples. My question is, did these dies survive the bombing to be used again? I would think so. The 3rd pattern flak badge used the 2nd pattern wreath, and this 2nd pattern badge was strictly a tombak badge (post-fire).