Juncker bombing

[Steiner63]

New speculation that the Juncker dies might have survived, continuing debates about the S&L production timelines..its frustrating to be a Knights Cross owner sometimes...
Regards
Steiner63

[Dietrich Maerz]

During the war, late in 1944,the house and the factory on Alte Jacobstrasse 13 was almost completely destroyed during a bombing raid. The company itself managed to survive.Almost all of the dies were destroyed during that time and had to be either re-cut or otherwise subsidised.

What makes you think that that statement is 100% correct?

What do you say to this one:

"In anticipation of the ever increasing bombing raids the dies of the company were moved to a secure storage place in the western outskirts of Berlin"

Dietrich

[Kevin V.]

What makes you think that that statement is 100% correct?

What do you say to this one:

"In anticipation of the ever increasing bombing raids the dies of the company were moved to a secure storage place in the western outskirts of Berlin"

Dietrich

Dietrich the time to play these games on the forum here has ended for me a couple of months ago.

A secure storage place could also be a shed in the woods!

sincerely

[Dietrich Maerz]

I have no idea what you mean?

[Robert P.]

Robert,

"SW68" is the Zip Code of the area in Berlin where Juncker was located. And I can't see the 'vault' on the picture but rather a very ordinary typical German shelf system. Where I was doing my apprenticeship the dies were not in vault. Why should they?

Dietrich

Dietrich ,

My term 'vault' was not meant to describe a steel safe, but rather an area where the dies were stored, simply stored. It's hard to imagine the dies all being destroyed unless they took a direct hit by a 500# bomb, or fire-damaged (high temp.). And, was not the 'SW68' designation used strictly at the end of the war, and not midwar before the bombing? I understand it was an address suffix. From what I have read on the forum the '68' was added to the stamp to commemorate it's old address after the bombing. Maybe this is incorrect.

[Don D.]

If the dies were not immediately recovered, cleaned and stored properly rust would have started at a minimum. That would distort or ruin the etchings. Heat would have been another killer since they had been hardened.

[Steiner63]

I had understood that it was a fact that the Juncker KC dies were destroyed in the air raids, several books relating to the Knights Cross that I have read have stated this, is there any new evidence to suggest otherwise?
Regards
Steiner63

[Robert P.]

This is not a thread intended to provoke controversy!

I believe, as do MOST other people, that the Juncker dies were destroyed in a bombing attack in 1944.

Can we not eliminate forever any doubt about this? Is there no documentary period proof of this? Surely, there must exist, somewhere, records of what specific streets, blocks, etc. were totally destroyed by bombing in Berlin. Strategic bombing surveys, post-strike aerial recon photos, new building permits, photos, announcements, correspondence with the PKZ, financial records....something.

It just seems to me to be ridiculous that this cannot be established with absolute certainty and I am just publicly wondering of anyone on this Forum knows where such material should exist. We are so keen here to demand proof of everything, why has this simple thing, this fundamental and often-stated "fact", not been put to rest forever?

Getting back to the initial post...I too believe in the bombing, absolutely. It was publicized. The point I was making previously was, couldn't have some of the dies survived, like for instance the Luftwaffe flak wreath, for one? This doesn't seem so impossible to me that some of the dies could have survived. I know it's paramount that we establish that the KC dies were destroyed, and that's a settled issue with me. I seriously doubt that we'll ever know exactly what happened to every die, that's just impossible.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Robert,

during the research for the Knights Cross book I tried desperately to find out where and when and how. I contacted several offices in berlin, I dug into bombing damage chart and I researched news papers. I ddi not find anything. However, it is a known fact that Berlin was flattened and the area where Juncker was located was in the middle of it.

So one can very reasonably assume that the dies were destroyed or otherwise rendered unusable.

What I do not like is statements like the one on the quoted website which has no documentation whatsoever and was most likely copied from somewhere else. This is then in turn quoted here and - hello - is now a freacking fact!

If one questions it, the toys are thrown down and the player leaves the field and calls it playing games. How can one question this? How can one dare!

However, the evidence on the RK sector clearly is so that one can assume the RK die at least was destroyed. How many of the three oaklevae dies - who knows?

[don-zamo]

Robert,

"SW68" is the Zip Code of the area in Berlin where Juncker was located. And I can't see the 'vault' on the picture but rather a very ordinary typical German shelf system. Where I was doing my apprenticeship the dies were not in vault. Why should they?

Dietrich

I agree, that looks like a shelf, but we cant say anything else, id love to see that room, or whats behind that guy. Probably just a brick wall knowing my luck

[Robert P.]

Robert,

during the research for the Knights Cross book I tried desperately to find out where and when and how. I contacted several offices in berlin, I dug into bombing damage chart and I researched news papers. I ddi not find anything. However, it is a known fact that Berlin was flattened and the area where Juncker was located was in the middle of it.

So one can very reasonably assume that the dies were destroyed or otherwise rendered unusable.

What I do not like is statements like the one on the quoted website which has no documentation whatsoever and was most likely copied from somewhere else. This is then in turn quoted here and - hello - is now a freacking fact!

If one questions it, the toys are thrown down and the player leaves the field and calls it playing games. How can one question this? How can one dare!

However, the evidence on the RK sector clearly is so that one can assume the RK die at least was destroyed. How many of the three oaklevae dies - who knows?

For some reason in the last post this got chopped off. I fully undertand, and appreciate your efforts trying to uncover this 'once' mystery.

[Kevin V.]

Robert,

during the research for the Knights Cross book I tried desperately to find out where and when and how. I contacted several offices in berlin, I dug into bombing damage chart and I researched news papers. I ddi not find anything. However, it is a known fact that Berlin was flattened and the area where Juncker was located was in the middle of it.

So one can very reasonably assume that the dies were destroyed or otherwise rendered unusable.

What I do not like is statements like the one on the quoted website which has no documentation whatsoever and was most likely copied from somewhere else. This is then in turn quoted here and - hello - is now a freacking fact!

If one questions it, the toys are thrown down and the player leaves the field and calls it playing games. How can one question this? How can one dare!

However, the evidence on the RK sector clearly is so that one can assume the RK die at least was destroyed. How many of the three oaklevae dies - who knows?

Dietrich

Did you or any other collector contacted Matt who created the website to check were he got his info?
And Yes I left the field, why? For the same reason as many other members before me!
Thanks
Kevin

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dietrich,
Did you or any other collector contacted Matt who created the website to check were he got his info?
And Yes I left the field, why? For the same reason as many other members before me!
Thanks
Kevin

Yes, I contacted him about 4 month ago and I never got an answer. The site is abandoned and maybe the owner left ...

Many left WAF and more stayed and even more are coming daily. However, for somebody who "left" you are reading and posting relatively frequent and that is good!. And that applies to most of those who left! Some just cannot take the heat, good or bad, and only want to show what they have to receive the uncritical "ahhs" and "ohhs."

But we all leave one day!

[Matthew]

misleading info about my website

Yes, I contacted him about 4 month ago and I never got an answer. The site is abandoned and maybe the owner left ...

No, you contacted me asking to use my pictures in your next book, did not ask one question about the content.
The site is not abandoned, its just another one of my projects that will get finish time permitting
The owner (me) did not leave
To answer your question about where I get my materials-from my own research and interviews including but not limited to the family of C.E.Juncker.
Now, at least partial floor plans survived of CEJ factory, quite a big place (36 washrooms listed) but no mention of vault room so the above pic probably shows just another storage room.

[Don D.]

Mathew, are you sure the picture of the storeroom shown above is from the Juncker factory and do you have a date for when it was taken?