5th Don Cossack - any hope?

[Rick C]

I've looked over some threads on this award. Seems that the "curly 9" is a bad sign which this doesn't exhibit but since the degree of 'pebbling' seems to be an area that folks comment on I'm hoping for any/all thoughts & opinions on this example.

Appreciated,

Rick C.

[Rick C]

2

[Rick C]

My query seems to be going nowhere so I’m bringing it to the top again in the hope of seeing if I can get some clued in weekend WAF surfers to pipe in with any confirmed (is that possible ) data on features specific to known originals of this badge.

In reading further I find that there seems consensus only on the ‘curly 9’ issue and the steel pin versus brass questions. These features (curly 9 & brass pin) are supposed to be no good.

I note that an observation was made about the interesting ‘bar’ feature under the 5 and over the 8 being a sign of an alleged original. In surfing the web for these being offered I note that Atlantic Crossroads (collect russia) has one on their site which shows this feature. An analysis on www.brocksguns.com of this badge seems to agree and shows photo examples. Can anyone offer any experience or empirical evidence of this being accurate?

If anyone has one with this feature could they let me know the dimensions of their badge?

Thanx folks, Rick C.

[grueni1208]

Here is a piece from a Niemann Update:

Regards

Daniel

[Wood]

Hi,
I believe it to be a copy.
I sent you a link via PM.
Regards,
Pete

[Rick C]

Hey Pete,

Can't access the images, which is what I'm guessing you're hoping. Can you copy and paste any pertinent images to the WAF link? Rick C.

[Rick C]

Here's the photos Pete sent along (these are his crosses). This was being discussed on another forum. Without the context (perhaps Pete can help) it's hard to add anything except I recall seeing this "scar" as it was called on another thread on WAF (member owning a 'scar version') as well as (same WAF owner) showing it on another forum. The owner of the cross was stating this scar is indicative of ALL original 5th Don Cossack badges. The second photo is another 'scar' cross but with holes for sewing directly to the tunic (I assume)

Since these photos are the only ones I've seen with this scar I've no clue if the owner's claim is true. The obvious question is (since others that claim to be period authentic don't have this feature) were there more than one maker or die.

Anyway - two photos:

[Rick C]

2nd scar photo:

[mbberlin]

I don't think the die was damaged from the beginning. So early pieces have that scar and later pieces not?

[Stan]

5th Don Cossack Badge

I think that it was probably me that made the observation on GMIC that original pieces have this "scar" to the right of the number "5". Whether I am right or not is a moot point but it is the second feature I look for after making sure that the curly "9" is not present - although I think that the fakers have realised that collectors are now wary of badges with a curly 9 and have made changes.

Stan.

[Rick C]

Stan, It was you. Thanx for piping in. So we have your scar & two of Pete's scars. However we have a number without that feature which are alleged to be authentic so, the question remains, was this a damaged die or was it a second die from another manufacturing operation?

What are the consistent features of an authentic cross? The bar below the 5 & above the 8? What about the pebbling under the paint. In some it barely noticeable while in others (Atlantic Crossroads image & the one I presented) the various pebbles & dots are more pronounced.

It would help to hear from folks owning or knowing of crosses having these features which had (if there is such a thing) iron clad provenance. In that way we might be able to establish that there were multiple dies/manufacturers.

rick C.

[CMSgt]

Medal

I don't know anything about these medals, but having looked at the different ones being shown there is a distinct difference between yours and the others. That being the crossguard on both swords. The balls appear to be on a straight line instead of one above and one below. Look at the other ones and you will see what I am trying to describe. Jim

[mbberlin]

Two questions:

How many of these crosses have been produced?

How many crosses can be produced with one die?

[Stan]

5th Don Cossack Badge

I don't know anything about these medals, but having looked at the different ones being shown there is a distinct difference between yours and the others. That being the crossguard on both swords. The balls appear to be on a straight line instead of one above and one below. Look at the other ones and you will see what I am trying to describe. Jim

Jim,

You make a very good point and another point of reference.

At one time, the "bars" on the front was a feature to look for, but no longer. I think that the point Rick makes about the depth of pebbling visible on the obverse is also correct and IMO should not be too pronounced.

Stan

[Rick C]

On MBBerlin's point: A WA member (juoneen) points out, in another related thread that : “I understand there were something like 80 thousand 5th Don cossack soldiers, and of that something like 5000 were officers.” As to how many received this cross (what the achievement criteria was) & how many stampings one gets off a die (during that period with their materials) I’ve not a clue.

Of macabre interest might be where these troops ended up before Stalin’s minions had their way with them.

Stan: Why wouldn't the bars be something to look for anymore? Either the bars existed on (at least one) war time die or they did not. Is there any conclusive evidence that the bars are 'not' an authentic feature?

Also, if Stan & Pete could give us the measurements of their crosses it would be of great interest. One would guess that having the same design flaw (the scar) that they would be measuring up the same. Atlantic Crossroads has posted his measurements as "47mm x 47mm". RC