"fÜr Raub Und Mord"

[Panzer_peter]

Hi Guys.

Have you ever seen one of these before ?

[Mark Stevens]

There is some controversy over these crosses. They were said to have been used as propaganda pieces by the Russians, but many people doubt this.

[Jono]

Run a search on them using the search function. You will find a couple of threads discussing these.
The story goes that they were made by the Russians during the seige of Leningrad as propaganda. The front is a normal EK but with the 1939 being replaced with 1941, the date of the German invasion of the Soviet Union, with the reverse having "For Robbery and Murder" on it. Not really sure how they were planning to use them exactly. There isn't really an accepted consensus, but many believe them to be post war fantasy pieces designed for the collectors market.

[Stu W]

Have a look...

Hello,

Here is one of the larger threads on them...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=Raub+Und+Mord

there are numerous others.

You will find the Advanced Search function to be one of your best friends here over time.

Regards,
Stu

[AUSGANG]

If there can be such a thing as a hierarchy of fakes, I believe a three piece version of this cross is more desirable than the one piece we see here. I think that the three piece crosses are of unknown place and time of origin but are still more interesting than the one piece crosses. I believe that if there is anything authentic about these crosses, it can be found in the three piece crosses... Ausgang

[WEISNER]

A BIG IF Ausgang indeed! It seems to me if these were a real wartime produced items, there would be many photos and possibly some film shot by the Russians to use as a propaganda tool!!!! Showing these crosses on German Dead or captured!!!!! I myself think these for this reason, They are pure fantasy!
My mind could be changed for sure if some photos or film were found, that could be proven to be shot on wartime film, printed on wartime photo paper etc....
Point being if real? These would have been used widespread in the Soviet propaganda machine!
Kevin

[Bill H.]

It looks like something created by someone not particularly thrilled by German occupation. I'm guessing its propaganda. I have no idea if its a wartime piece but I'm pretty sure the Germans didn't produce it. "For Robbery and Murder" certainly gives the impression that they think the medal isn't the Good Conduct award. Its interesting they chose the 1813 date. I wonder if they are implying this has been going on for some time??

Curious piece. I hope someone can give a definitive provinance to this one.

Cheers, Bill Huber

[Panzer_peter]

thanks for your input guys

[Don D.]

If there can be such a thing as a hierarchy of fakes, I believe a three piece version of this cross is more desirable than the one piece we see here. I think that the three piece crosses are of unknown place and time of origin but are still more interesting than the one piece crosses. I believe that if there is anything authentic about these crosses, it can be found in the three piece crosses... Ausgang

Actually, if they were made by the russians I would expect a crude one piece like this, vice a properly constructed three piece cross. The propaganda value is in the message on the item, not in it's construction. Besides, you would be able to pmp out the solid ones much faster than a three piece cross and its all about getting the message out, right?

Of course, I don't believe in any of these so its all hypothetical to me.

[-=Re-Sa=-]

This is fantasy piece made by Russian, pieces like this one has ben selling by already closed Russian internet shop. That shop was only for reproductions of medals and badges.

[Chris D.]

these often turn up and there never seems to be a decisive conclusion. don makes a good point. IF these were made as propaganda pieces by the russians, they would just crank them out with shoddy one piece construction. however, as we know, propaganda only works on mass scale and there are NO period images of these and there not nearly enough examples floating around that would be effective propaganda, IMO. If nothing else, i think the russians had more pressing issues in the mid 40s to put their resources into then producing these things.

[byterock]

The one story that I am following up is that there was a paper or leaflet version of this medal about during the siege of Leningrad but as you can understand it is rather hard to find info on this period at least in English.

There must of been some sort of article or alike that inspired the fakers in recent years so I have a number of feeler letters out to some contacts I have in RU but after almost a year + (all be it not very active search) nothing yet.

[Steinar]

that cross looks like one of the worse eks ive ever seen. it looks close to brand new and straight from the candy factory