Spanish cross w/o swords. Good or ....?

[Fluffy]

This spanish cross without swords is offered to me and to me it looks like a good one. But I myself am no expert in these things, so what do the members here think about it? It is also unmarked. Can someone tell me what maker constructed this award?
Thanks in advance.

[andrewb]

I can't tell you who the maker is but I can tell you that this SC started its life WITH swords. You can see where the swords have been cut off and the outlines of the swords on the back of the eagles. If this cross is bronze then I'm not sure why someone would bother cutting them off. The number of bronze SC awarded for with and without swords are about the same. Of course if it's a silver SC then thats a different story. Still, its a bad attempt to convert it. Not one I would have.

Regards,
AB.

[tgn]

There are very original SC's with the swords cut off by the manufacturer when making the badge. Some used one die and simply cut off the swords to make a "without" swords version. I believe this is a Meybauer badge, and they were known for doing this. This looks like a nice example to me.

Tom

[Z19]

Sc

As Tom stated, didn't most ALL SC start with swords and they were simply snipped off before the eagles were added to reduce the dies needed? Alex

[andrewb]

There are very original SC's with the swords cut off by the manufacturer when making the badge. Some used one die and simply cut off the swords to make a "without" swords version. I believe this is a Meybauer badge, and they were known for doing this. This looks like a nice example to me.

Tom

True. there were originals SC's with the swords cut off and I agree that this cross is orginal BUT can anyone tell me exactly when the swords were cut off.
Was it pre 45 or post 45?? What makes me think that it was after 1945 is the outline of the swords on the back of the eagles. This indicates to me that the cross had swords for a long period of time and thus makes it more likely that they were removed after 1945. This is a tell tale sign of many post war conversions. Original yes but IMO just to risky to buy. I would wait for a factory made SC without swords to come along.


Regards,
AB.

[tgn]

What makes me think that it was after 1945 is the outline of the swords on the back of the eagles. This indicates to me that the cross had swords for a long period of time and thus makes it more likely that they were removed after 1945. This is a tell tale sign of many post war conversions.
Regards,
AB.

Good eyes! I think you are correct on this...

Also, when the original "without swords" were made, the eagles tend to touch the cross in three places - each wingtip AND the bottom of the swastika. The ones made with swords tend to have the eagles "ride" higher up without the swastika tip touching.

So I now tend to agree with your original comment on this one...

Tom

[Fluffy]

Thank you very much gentlemen.

Learning a lot after your comments.

[tgn]

As with many aspects of this hobby, there are just opinions on what is good or bad. After searching the archives on Spansih Crosses, I see other examples that look like this one that came from good sources. I think the so-called "shadows" left by the swords before being removed may not be a sign that it was altered post war after all. It looks like they had a groove in the back of the eagle to fit better against the swords when they were present. One thing is for sure, this Spanish Cross is an original example, and Meybauer commonly removed swords to make without sword versions. So who knows. If I didn't have one, I would be happy to own this example for my collection...Tom

[bbeck]

Spanish Cross

The bronze Spanish cross pictured is commonly referred to as an unmarked Meybauer. Every one I have seen has this trait, the same cross can be seen in Detlev Niemann's book volume 2, page 456, top right. If this cross did not have these marks I would be a bit cautious.

[Sal Williams]

There is no enhancement to value on a bronze version by removing swords. They often have the marks where the swords were if they are cutoff versions. Silver grade is a different story.

I wouldn't be sure it is Meybauer from those pics though. I would want straight on in focus shots before I bought it. The cutoff swords would not be my concern though.

[Stan]

Spanish Cross without Swords

Sal,

I too have several photos on file where the bronze crosses have had the swords removed, the eagles placed a little higher up the cross, have marks on their backs and do not touch the central area.

However, on the two silver Meybauer crosses I have seen, the swastikas are actually attached to the central area and the backs of the eagles are unmarked.

Stan

[Stan]

Spanish Cross without Swords

Here is a marked Silver grade Meybauer without swords. Backs of eagles also unmarked.

Stan

[Sal Williams]

True. there were originals SC's with the swords cut off and I agree that this cross is orginal BUT can anyone tell me exactly when the swords were cut off.
Was it pre 45 or post 45?? What makes me think that it was after 1945 is the outline of the swords on the back of the eagles. This indicates to me that the cross had swords for a long period of time and thus makes it more likely that they were removed after 1945. This is a tell tale sign of many post war conversions. Original yes but IMO just to risky to buy. I would wait for a factory made SC without swords to come along.


Regards,
AB.

I would guess these were PRE war cut rather than post war cut

[jacques]

Hi,
the cross is absolutly original. It is normal for some manufacturers to cut the swords because I suppose that they didn't make two separate dies for swords or without swords crosses; Juncker, Meybauer are among these firms (due to several crosses observed).
Some manufacturers made 2 different dies.

jacques

[andrewb]

Gentlemen,
As I said before, I am not questioning the orginality of this cross but, can anyone PROVE to me that the swords on this cross were removed prior to 1945?

Regards,
AB.