RK S&L marked only 935 - postwar??

[juoneen]

If hitler had stopped the war earlier, and not become fanatical, we would not be in this canundrum.

Records would never have been destroyed , prices wouldnt be crazy, and the allies ...may not have had been forced to bomb the cities out, to try and end the war out of necessity.. to preserve our lives and liberty.

RK information data, was also collateral damage, as were our 50 million citizens of the world who perished.

(their deaths the greatest loss still not forgotten)

The destruction of the civilians houses, and Rk's , among other treasures owned by germans ...that were personal property ,...with factorys, and records, and this missing unknown data.. is now mostly gone or perminantly destroyed as this is the reason no one knows it all.

(unless found in records held by the american military buried in some warehouse, next to the arc of the covenant. )

Regardless of the sparse information at present day from few manufacturers compiled to date, i personally now feel...after the same quizzing of the data known presently ...manufacturing processes , and date to frames, and cores will never be complete to allow all the real truth to ever be known about much related to this business we wish to have answered.

(like if this cross is post war or pre war)

As impressive as the knights cross books are..all put together ,by all authors to present day...from the earliest time of interest... the real truth of unknown examples... not tied to known fakes ...admittedly is just constantly speculation to the negative.

Much of these exceptions to real examples are mostly opinions..... as most same questions still argued, are still ...unanswered today....

(save the presently known 100% original examples), with possible few exceptions with traceable provenances).

Maybe the germans are in the process of fabricating records to substantiate what they want us to buy,as it is now not just a hobby, but BIG BUSINESS..like art is faked in order to legitimize certain examples..and suddenly new authors proclaim themselves as the last word...and the new messiah...so medals sales can skyrocket in confidence? And publishing is good.

(and fakers can have business as usual to meet this new generations demands)

But i do not honestly feel (common sense tells me) IF...there are any records other than what has surfaced already , with as many german born collectors , and authors, as there are ...seeking the truth ...that data , would have already come to light. And in abundance freely provided by the makers or their assign if records pertinent to inquirys about the RK were in existance.

I strongly suspect :Thats why few answers if any...for questions to companys still in business or even defunct ...receive nothing but dribbles back to inquirys from wannabe new authors hoping for an EPIPHANY.. to become the next RK FUHRER.(zeig HEIL! Jungends)

In the future i feel another way to prove the unknown at this time in history, will be used to identify original examples, and most likely ....even a dozen new books will still leave us lacking , and ..not only a little broker@ almost double todays prices, but reveal us few clues we dont already know that are monumental to end all controversy for examples still around, but not attributable as accepted originals as 100% proveably good.

(This is likely because its obvious,there is LITTLE information to be HAD as it was destroyed in the time. MAYBE EVEN BY THE WORKERS THEMSELVES to keep them warm as kindling during post war hard times.
And believe me it was hard times post war.

As a result: i am truly sceptical, and ... i am waiting with baited breath to be expecting ...all at once ...a lot of information to arrive from the dead... suddenly to mysteriously be discovered (most likely the biggest bogus ruse more than likely ...that will have to be phorensicly proven by top forgery experts , before ill completely accept it) for this one simple reason :

There is little to add to the known already from factorys records not in existance , and I truly feel it will remain a mine field forever, as i have become as a small percentage of others here on this forum ...pessimistic.

I still read the opinions as they intelligently radiate out , in hope someday this opinion i have , is proven wrong, but hope springs eternal for us all. We continue redundantly round and round on this merry go round ...till we get more , and more confused,with each unknown example leaving us dizzy till we can sometimes ... just involuntarily without warning lose our proverbial lunches.

My comments are ...Nothing personal to dietrich as i admire his tenacity, assistance on this forum ,and good works to date.

[90th Light]

The are non-ferrous RKs and the notion about navy is absolutely a myth. It was done - pure and simple - for reasons of easier manufacturing. There are tons of articles about this in the contemporary press (Uniformenmarkt and Schwert und Spaten). Doesn't matter whether EK1 or RK, same procedure.

Hello again Dietrich,

we were talking more about this here tonight and comparing EK's brought back from North Africa by New Zealand soldiers. The brass centered ones are certainly there amongst as are the Iron examples and I even have a couple zinc centered ones as well.

The other collectors agree with you that my point about the brass ones being naval is a myth which is reinforced by the coincidence of the KM having to supply some items to the WH because of shortages unique to Afrika.

What did come out of the discussion was very interesting however and worth sharing with all reading this. They too had seen the zinc centered S&L RK's to which I have already referred. At the time research was done and this is what was found out;


" The iron ore used for the center of EK's & RK's came from Sweden. This is because what the Swedes could supply what was deemed to the best quality the Germans could get for this purpose. After war broke out in 1939 there was insufficient stock of such ore to meet the full demand for EK's & RK's so some manufacturers turned to other material mainly brass and zinc to cover the immediate shortage until more ore could be procurred.

This situation arose again in 1944 when Sweden became a lot more careful of how much business it was doing with Germany or how much it was being seen to support the cause of a Nazi government. Diplomatic pressure was being placed on Sweden from the Allies in the west and a growing military pressure was now threatening from Russia in the east.

Once again during 1944, the German manufacturers of the EK & RK were finding it hard to get the correct iron ore they desired so once again they started to use more brass and zinc. Brass also being harder to get itself in 1944 if not impossible by 45 so zinc is more likely at that time if the other two were simply just not avaliable any more"

I hope this is an interesting point which seems to be a real possibility for those times in my opinion.

Best regards, Chris

[Leroy]

Seems logical to me that, even if non-ferrous cores were made for purely "economics of production" reasons (and I believe Dietrich is absolutely correct in this), it would have been a good selling point for retailers to point out to naval personnel that they were more resistant to damage by exposure to salt water spray than the iron types. I have had several navy uniform groupings and many included non-ferrous cored EK's. By the same token, of course, I have also found these types scattered among LW/Heer groups (but not to the same extent).

[Dietrich Maerz]

Chris,

this swedish iron ore thing is completely unbelievable for me for at least two reasons. First, there is nothing in the PKZ files (yes, I know, some believe 'stories' more than original documents) regarding this and up until the very last month the quality control of the PKZ/LDO was up and running. Why would S&L and Juncker and K&Q make their last models in iron if there was this swedish problem?

Secondly one should sit down an calculate the amount of iron needed for the RK-EK production in the last 12 month of the war. 2 tons, maybe 3? Germany was in bad shape, but not that bad.

But again, if the myth of the navy non-rusting crosses has an appeal to some, why not. Applies to the Luftwaffe also - non-ferrous RKs and EKs didn't distort the compass so the heros found their way home like brave bees!

Dietrich

[90th Light]

Hello Dietrich,

I can understand your skeptism in some of this esp. when one considers how much time you have now devoted to your own study of it.

The "Swedish Iron" discovery comes from research done by V.E.Bowen author of the book "The Prussian and German Iron Cross"

Like yourself, he took the study of this medal very seriously and had access to both amazing examples of the various classes of the award plus many who were awarded it or involved in the manufacture of the Iron Cross during WW2 and to a lesser extent WW1.

I am sure that there would be a strong fundamental basis as to why he had concluded the Swedish iron ore was considered to be the most desirable and used at the time.

To be honest, such a theory also surprises me but may-be you are now in the best position to investigate if this is in fact right or wrong.

As for the idea that non-ferrous centered examples not being a specialist model for navy personal or accurate front-line LW pilots, I certainly have no trouble accepting that to be the case unless of course some evidence comes to light in the future to prove otherwise. I do note with interest however, "Leroy's" observation that he has seen more than his fair share of non-ferrous examples amongst groupings from German naval veterans. May-be just a case of what one decided to buy at the time according to who they were, what they wanted or what they did.

All in all very interesting in what appears to be on-going questions regarding this award,

Chris

[Dietrich Maerz]

Chris,

I will check my Bowen (of whom I have the highest respect!!!) regarding this iron thing. For me as a mechanical engineer there is no difference between swedish iron ore or any other. Steel is iron plus carbon plus a little bit else. There is no better or worse FE. Swedish iron ore was especially rich in iron, that was all.

The navy thing in Leroy's sense is ok. Maybe some submariner came and asked about a brass core EK. Latest abter March 1941 it was no longer allowed to use non iron cores. But we also know that a lot of things were not done according to the law.

However, it would be wrong to say that theses crosses were especially made for the purpose.

[Bob Hritz]

Chris,

I will check my Bowen (of whom I have the highest respect!!!) regarding this iron thing. For me as a mechanical engineer there is no difference between swedish iron ore or any other. Steel is iron plus carbon plus a little bit else. There is no better or worse FE. Swedish iron ore was especially rich in iron, that was all.

Dietrich,

Do not tell this to Krupp!

Bob Hritz

[90th Light]

Chris,

I will check my Bowen (of whom I have the highest respect!!!) regarding this iron thing. For me as a mechanical engineer there is no difference between swedish iron ore or any other. Steel is iron plus carbon plus a little bit else. There is no better or worse FE. Swedish iron ore was especially rich in iron, that was all.

The navy thing in Leroy's sense is ok. Maybe some submariner came and asked about a brass core EK. Latest abter March 1941 it was no longer allowed to use non iron cores. But we also know that a lot of things were not done according to the law.

However, it would be wrong to say that theses crosses were especially made for the purpose.

Hello Dietrich,

I do not know if he published that finding in one of the editions of his book or not. The information was passed on to me by older collectors than my-self who were very serious about the EK's & RK's in the period 1970 to 2000. They corresponded directly with and talked in person to V.Bowen and this is something of interest which he told them at that time. I can assure you however that they are certain it is what he said.

He stated that the Swedish iron was more mallable than the German variety and thus ideal for making the centers from. Thus it was the resource of choice.

Of course you are in the ideal position now to check this point out with an engineering back-round and your own on-going interest in the EK/ RK history.

I look forward to what you may discover in this regard because it could possibly also explain why there was a swing back to non-ferrous centers at the end in 44/45 which is hard for some collectors to understand because the regulations had become so specific.

Another question which also comes out of this, is what has happened to the archive of information, research, photos and examples of EK's/ RK's which V.Bowen so carefully put together. His work was an amazing effort,

Regards, Chris

[Leroy]

Another question which also comes out of this, is what has happened to the archive of information, research, photos and examples of EK's/ RK's which V.Bowen so carefully put together. His work was an amazing effort,

Adrian Forman, I believe, has access to this information .

[90th Light]

Hello Dietrich & Leroy,

having a sleepless night here "down-under" so I pulled my copy of
Bowen's book out and I am having a good re-read.

My edition is the first one dated 1986. On page 188 he makes reference to "non-ferrous inserts produced as a result of iron shortages during the latter war years has not been bourne out in his close researches"

but further down the page he states; "The malleable iron (Eisenblech) etc. used is a very particular grade of soft iron which would have only been available then and even now, from specialist suppliers"

There is a lot more and he goes on to speculate why the non-ferrous centers were used in early production of the RK.

I better clarify what I am saying here;

I have been told that V.E.Bowen discovered in his research that the best grade of special malleable iron used in the production of the EK/ RK was sourced from Sweden and this was hard to obtain in the period 1939-40 and also the period 1944-45.

The fact that non-ferrous centers were used to over come these shortages appears to agree with Bowens findings for the early period up to 1941 but does not seem to be his findings for the period 1944/ 45.

I hope this makes this clear and those reading this who can now research further and build on it.

On a completely different note; could I also ask if anyone reading this has access to clearer pictures of the Oak Leaves and Swords shown on page 235 of Bowens book. This is described in more detail on page 233 as "Example 1" and is an example in the collection of the Imperial War Museum in London deposited there in 1946, Bowen goes on to describe them as "presents a level (not slightly concave) appearance" on the reverse

I have access to one of this type of Oakleaves & Swords and would be very gratefull to get any better images of the Imperial War Museum set to compare with

Many thanks, Chris

p.s. is the last edition of Bowens book still obtainable from Adrian Forman ?

[Bob Hritz]

The malleability of iron is adjusted by the amount of coke and carbon used in forming the iron into workable material. That is easily adjusted and iron is iron, in it's pure form. There is no such thing as soft iron or hard iron. It is only the alloying or the amount of coke and carbon added to change it's characteristics.

My grandfather was a blacksmith and I used to watch him make iron into steel with higher amounts of carbon in the coke fire. Likewaise he could make iron as malleable as soft copper by coking out the carbon.

Bob Hritz

[90th Light]

The malleability of iron is adjusted by the amount of coke and carbon used in forming the iron into workable material. That is easily adjusted and iron is iron, in it's pure form. There is no such thing as soft iron or hard iron. It is only the alloying or the amount of coke and carbon added to change it's characteristics.

My grandfather was a blacksmith and I used to watch him make iron into steel with higher amounts of carbon in the coke fire. Likewaise he could make iron as malleable as soft copper by coking out the carbon.

Bob Hritz

Hello Bob,

personally that makes a lot of sense to me and I was surprised when what V.Bowen had said about the Swedish connection was told to me.

All I can really justifiy in this, is the fact that what have shared here was told to me by collectors several years my senior who started collecting when I was still in primary school. Because there was no internet in those days and they were academics, they corresponded directly with Bowen on the subject and built up an enjoyable sharing of knowledge at the time.

Could be that this is in fact totally wrong but at least now someone like Dietrich is aware of it and who knows what he may yet find out about it.

The other point is that someone like Bowen really did do some ground breaking work in his day and came across some very interesting finds such as the Oakleaves and swords pictured on page 235 of his book to which I have already referred. When he came across such an oddity, he did not just dismiss it as instantly wrong which is happening so often today but went the extra mile to try and find out why. Of course he had the advantage of often being able to talk directly to many who either got the award, made it at the time or brought it back from the war.

Of course I also must add that you yourself Bob are also one of those early collectors whose collection and observations are of such important value to the collecting of this stuff.

Regards, Chris

[90th Light]

Brought to the top again for reference,

Chris