Looking to get this Knights Cross

[adlerfan53]

Sorry about jumping in here. I know I am sort of new around here. I think from reading the original post that the question was whether or not to purchase this particular cross based on members opinions. I don't know much about the KC but I respect Dietrichs knowledge. If it were me and I had the money to afford a KC I would look elsewhere for a cross that is known to be original. I am so glad I found this site as it has already saved me much hard earned money. As a collector I have been burned in the past. I now know that I have to do more research and gain more knowledge beofre any purchase. However, sometimes a risk has to be taken in order to come out on top of a deal. Just my 2 cents.

[Leroy]

Now back to Van's latest post!

Van, this one looks like a postwar Souval. Is the swastika low (it is on Souvals) or is it even with the top edge of the frame? Souvals have a "dropped 3" in the 1939 date section, where the bottom of the "3" is lower than the bottom of the other numbers. Also, Souval used the incuse "800" silver mark, like this one. The suspension loop also looks funny, almost like solder dripped on it.

You should pass on this one unless you want a cheap "filler".

Best,
Leroy

P.S. Someone has also worked on the bottom of the ring of this one.

[Bill W.]

Leroy, some of your points are mine also... Of all the awarded RK's, duplicate RK's, our esteemed authors have probably studied a mere tiny sampling. Putting it into the significance of a 24 hour day I doubt none of the esteemed authors have studied more than 15 minutes of the day. (Yes Dietrich I've done the math... Have you studied 166 crosses? That's (15/(24*60))*16,000 crosses (16,000: that's my guess of total RK's including original awarded plus dups).

So Leroy, look at the history of debate on RK's. We've got less than 15 minutes of good solid research, or so I'm guessing, maybe Dietrich will tell me he's looked at over 300 getting us that next 15 minutes of the total...

Dietrich I applaud your planting your feet in the ground and taking a stand, but of all people you should know there's more to learn.

Our collective knowledge here is not all encompassing. Collective doubt on an RK, great, don't buy a non-magnetic S&L.

What was the recent collective wisdom on highly flawed Type A's just a few years ago? That's rhetorical, you were laughed at as you showed your cross.

But, hey, maybe we'll learn nothing more. The final book has been written. Yeah, that's it.

With no offense intended, this is a logic error that disregards sampling sizes and assumes that one must view all knights crosses to make any assumptions. With that thought process, any scientific study on the subject matter would be impossible. It seems as though Mr Maerz has a fairly large sample size that would probably pass the muster of any statistician looking at the problem. Additionally, the denominator noted above is at best a guess that has no basis in fact. I don't think that anyone denies there is more to learn, but denying what has already been learned is somewhat pointless.

[Dave Kane]

Now back to Van's latest post!

Van, this one looks like a postwar Souval. Is the swastika low (it is on Souvals) or is it even with the top edge of the frame? Souvals have a "dropped 3" in the 1939 date section, where the bottom of the "3" is lower than the bottom of the other numbers. Also, Souval used the incuse "800" silver mark, like this one. The suspension loop also looks funny, almost like solder dripped on it.

You should pass on this one unless you want a cheap "filler".

Best,
Leroy

P.S. Someone has also worked on the bottom of the ring of this one.

Let's call a FAKE a fake!!! This sort of wording....."a post war Souval", like there was a war time Souval, doesn't help matters and only confuses issues.

This latest allowance of 'gray area' too is akin to the above. The dealers who supposedly KNOW war time from post continually attempt to sell these FAKE S&L Crosses (but) at a 30% discount If they indeed were period and proper there's no dealer in the world going to give up $3K!!

It's sad but was anticipated.....a 'new' spin added to the old ones of late war shortages, rushed manufacturing, lack of qualified craftsmen.

Come on..let's call a spade a spade and not fall backward....

[Bob Hritz]

Dave,

I really hate when you hold back and don't speak what's on your mind!

Bob Hritz

[Leroy]

To make Dave happy: Van, this is a postwar COPY of an RK, made by Souval, which did not make the RK during the war.
Best wishes,
Leroy

P.S. It is a FAKE.

P.P.S. It is not a real wartime RK.

P.P.P.S. Welcome to the "Crosses" Forum.

P.P.P.P.S. If you are on any medication, especially blood pressure medication, have your physician double your dosage immediately.

[Van]

LOL.... what a post this has been.... still looking....
Van

[Dave Kane]

To make Dave happy: Van, this is a postwar COPY of an RK, made by Souval, which did not make the RK during the war.
Best wishes,
Leroy

P.S. It is a FAKE.

P.P.S. It is not a real wartime RK.

P.P.P.S. Welcome to the "Crosses" Forum.

Thankyou Counselor!

Collecting at this level leaves very little to be relegated to 'grey areas' and LOGIC suggests that S&L shouldn't be (given) the exception, as no other maker is when discussing non-iron cores. That said however, there's lots of evidence, provenance etc. to demonstrate these other makers dabbled in non-iron cores BUT nothing to date suggesting that S&L did...

Other than the money maker of POST WAR assembled Crosses showing their poor quality, unusual stamps and associated 'grey areas'!

[Brian S]

...pointless, withdrawn...

[Dave Kane]

Dave,

I really hate when you hold back and don't speak what's on your mind!

Bob Hritz

Bob, it's in the BLOOD....34 years of it!

[Dietrich Maerz]

And no Dietrich, I'm done reading books... You were simply a Bridge Too Far. I'm sick and tired of reading a book today and tomorrow the REAL EXPERTS take the previous author apart.

To bad! But then please don't judge what you have not read!

I don't think you can rule non-mag S&L's out. If they did exist then they represent a very very small percentage of the total.

I respect what you think. But thinking is just that... They did exist - that is not the question. The question is whether they did exist pre- May 1945. And my investigation showed that they didn't (S&L that is) and that is all I'm saying.

I will not go back to the A and B-Type die and the early B-Types, i.e. the magnetic 935-4 and the 800-4. One cannot make those fit and the later non-magnetic also. At least not in the sense of "delivered to the PKZ for the purpose of being awarded."

[Bob Hritz]

For those who have asked why I didn't post, on this subject, because I own the non-magnetic (Kitzengen) Knight's Cross. I surely cannot be objective when I have ownership of the cross. Suffice it to say, I am content with the group, which was gotten decades ago. I cannot be hurt, because of the photo prices today, I could get more for all the original photos, of the surrender, than I paid for the group, back then.

I look forward to more research and I laud Dietrich Maerz for all his research. If you ask Dietrich, I placed no 'conditions' on the Knight's Crosses I sent to him and value his honest and objective analysis.

Do I agree with everything? Well, I am still having a few reservations about the Steinhauer and Luck question, but, overall I find myself having read the book 4 times and refer to it often, for both pleasure and to try and learn something I didn't know (there is a lot to learn in that fine tome).

Since the book was published, I have sent Dietrich all the non-magnetic Knight's Crosses I could find, for his further research and archive. The quest for knowledge never ends.

Bob Hritz

[Leroy]

I would like to applaud both Bob and Dietrich.

Bob has been absolutely selfless in his willingness to share his huge RK collection for study. Dietrich (although we disagree, sometimes harshly) has produced the best reference book EVER on the RK.

Without people like these two, we would still be in the "Stone Age" as far as collector-available knowledge for these crosses is concerned. If you don't have Dietrich's book, then you should go order it right now, tonight.

Leroy

[Bob Hritz]

If you don't have Dietrich's book, then you should go order it right now, tonight.

Leroy

If you don't have Dietrich's book, you shouldn't be looking for Knight's Crosses, for your collection. Had this book been out 30 years ago, I would have a far larger Knight's Cross collection!!!!!

Bob Hritz

[Dave Kane]

I would like to applaud both Bob and Dietrich.

Bob has been absolutely selfless in his willingness to share his huge RK collection for study. Dietrich (although we disagree, sometimes harshly) has produced the best reference book EVER on the RK.

Without people like these two, we would still be in the "Stone Age" as far as collector-available knowledge for these crosses is concerned. If you don't have Dietrich's book, then you should go order it right now, tonight.

Leroy

Absolutely!!!!