S&L Knights crosses ( from Lüdenscheid to Schloss Klessheim )

[Robert T.]

Nice information and great research Robert....Jimmy........I know of one cross that I saw many years ago from a WW2 vet of the third army while he was showing me his scrap book and souvenirs. Even then I knew what an RK was. It was marked 4 but I can not for the life of me remember the silver content. But I knew 4 was the maker number. I tried every way I could to get that cross but no go. I asked him the question every school boy asks. 'Did you get it off of a dead german.' His wife spoke up and said No, he got it in a poker game when he was in Austria. He grudgingly admitted that it was so. She then said he mailed it home too her just after New years of 1945. I do not recall her saying the date. Again, can I proove it. No. But I have tried to locate that cross from surviving relatives all to no avail as both of them passed away many years ago. Again I can not back it up with proof but if we keep digging.....Regards Jimmy

Jimmy,

Nice story, it must make more sense to you now , doesn't it ?
__________________________________________________ ______
Thank you for all your good comments..

Cheers,
__________
Robert

[VIPER]

Jimmy,

Nice story, it must make more sense to you now , doesn't it ?
__________________________________________________ ______
Thank you for all your good comments..

Cheers,
__________
Robert

Yes it does. Its amazing that she got the location right and the general time. It was in a case as well. never told the story on the forum before cause I could not verify it. but thats what happened. Just wish I could locate that cross through a family member. The nephew I talked too did not know anything about it but told me he would contact me if he located it............Do you know if US army units tended to be grouped together as soldiers from one state or area of the country would be in the same unit. It was in earlier wars so I was wondering if that was still the practice in WW2. Could explain why so many 800/4 seem to turn up in the mid-west and Kentucky..........Regards Jimmy

[Douglas 5]

The Schloss Klessheim project in connection with Berchtesgaden connector improvment phase that was approved by Hitler , saw Schloss Klessheim as a last stop on the Austrian side befor going into Berchtesgaden . A double escape route was drawn up on blue prints to put in a tunnel to the Austria side to make two ways in and out of Berchtestgaden. Only the first short tunnel was ever built . Do to the war this project was put on hold and then totaly dropped . Schloss Klessheim had a lot of activity - a rail connection was partial built , but as nice as the view and location was it had a major -war time-security concern .
Douglas

[Robert T.]

Do you know if US army units tended to be grouped together as soldiers from one state or area of the country would be in the same unit. It was in earlier wars so I was wondering if that was still the practice in WW2. Could explain why so many 800/4 seem to turn up in the mid-west and Kentucky..........Regards Jimmy

Jimmy,

The personnel of the division was originally drawn from the Midwest states of Illinois, Wisconsin and also from Minnesota....

There was a book published in 1992 on the 86th inf. div. , but it seems to be sold out or out of stock

Regards,
_____________
Robert

[Robert T.]

I have already posted this link on another thread a few days ago , but it should complement the story here.

The Americans in Lüdenscheid;
http://www.footnote.com/page/2067/wwii-europe

_____________
Robert

[VIPER]

You know we may be onto something here as I have noted a seeming concentration of vet finds per Bob and others from the Mid west and Kentucky which is really close. Bobs 800/4 vet was from Southside Chigago if I remember right. ,,,,,,Jimmy

[Robert T.]

You know we may be onto something here as I have noted a seeming concentration of vet finds per Bob and others from the Mid west and Kentucky which is really close. Bobs 800/4 vet was from South side Chicago if I remember right. ,,,,,,Jimmy

One point of interest is that the veterans from the "BLACKHAWK" division did not stay long enough in Germany after the war to pick up those postwar S&L copies. They were redeployed back to the states and then to the Pacific theater ,
___________
Robert

[Leroy]

Robert,
I really wanted to thank you for your excellent contributions here! Very interesting information which opens entire new ways of looking at these things.
Thanks!
Leroy

[Darrell]

Great info I agree.

But still .. at the end of the day .. it doesn't prove or disprove anything. All comes back to who and what you believe

[Douglas 5]

I heard different versions of this Klessheim find . When and what was found that is known here ? Or are there 2 finds ? I thought workers found some awards hidden in the wall in the 60,s during renovations ?
Douglas

[Leroy]

Good point, Darrell!

I personally will believe the American vets who brought this stuff back. They are really the only "time machine" we have. This was the great "molding experience" of their lives and I don't believe a single one I've dealt with in my hometown area (and there have been hundreds) has ever lied to me or tried to float a fake past me with some outrageous story. On a side note, here was the make-up of the street where I grew up:
2 retired elderly couples
A widow of a Navy lawyer
A former Army MP (Pacific) (Samurai sword)
A former Marine, wounded on Guadalcanal (I have his Globe and Anchor cap eagle)
A former B-24 navigator (flew the first Ploesti mission - I have the cap he wore)
A former stateside army clerk (lots of old LIFE magazines!)
A former Army quartermaster sgt. - ETO- (had everything, but kept it all!)
A former tank sgt. - ETO (800-4 RK!)
A retired "Old Army" colonel - very gruff (probably had lots -would never talk to anybody!)
My house -Father in 87th Inf. Div. -ETO- (photos, his uniforms, German medical equipment, rifles, P-38 pistol)
A former medical tech -ETO- (Books from Goering's villa, WMC's, 3 cloth DKIG's)
I'm sure I was a real pest to these guys (a real Dennis the Menace). But they GAVE me this stuff! (And I've still got it.)


Maybe my street was unusual in some way, but I don't really think so. In the area of the country where I grew up, EVERYBODY had served. It was a great childhood for a collector!
Best,
Leroy

[Darrell]

I'd "believe" a Vet's take, before I'd believe many collectors or Dealer Stories as well

[Luftm40]

Good point, Darrell!

I personally will believe the American vets who brought this stuff back. They are really the only "time machine" we have. This was the great "molding experience" of their lives and I don't believe a single one I've dealt with in my hometown area (and there have been hundreds) has ever lied to me or tried to float a fake past me with some outrageous story. On a side note, here was the make-up of the street where I grew up:
2 retired elderly couples
A widow of a Navy lawyer
A former Army MP (Pacific) (Samurai sword)
A former Marine, wounded on Guadalcanal (I have his Globe and Anchor cap eagle)
A former B-24 navigator (flew the first Ploesti mission - I have the cap he wore)
A former stateside army clerk (lots of old LIFE magazines!)
A former Army quartermaster sgt. - ETO- (had everything, but kept it all!)
A former tank sgt. - ETO (800-4 RK!)
A retired "Old Army" colonel - very gruff (probably had lots -would never talk to anybody!)
My house -Father in 87th Inf. Div. -ETO- (photos, his uniforms, German medical equipment, rifles, P-38 pistol)
A former medical tech -ETO- (Books from Goering's villa, WMC's, 3 cloth DKIG's)
I'm sure I was a real pest to these guys (a real Dennis the Menace). But they GAVE me this stuff! (And I've still got it.)


Maybe my street was unusual in some way, but I don't really think so. In the area of the country where I grew up, EVERYBODY had served. It was a great childhood for a collector!
Best,
Leroy

Leroy, I grew up in Des Moines, IA in the 60s and 70s...your street was not unique! Neighbors, doctors, dentists, my Dad's law partners and friends...everyone was a WWII vet. Even my Boy Scout leaders who used German field gear on our camp outs. Different times...

[Leroy]

Andy,
It's hard for some collectors now to realize that this stuff was EVERYWHERE!
Nobody much cared and nobody thought it was very valuable. I guess that's one of the reasons that prices today still tend to shock me.
Best,
Leroy